Mormon to Medium

Ep. 75 - Heavenly Minded No Earthly Good? (Drew pt.3)

• Brad Zeeman / Nannette Wride / Drew • Season 2 • Episode 75

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Brad and Nannette sit down with their friend Drew as he discusses the intense emotions and turmoil he faced from questioning long-held religious beliefs after attending the funeral of Nannette's murdered husband Cory. This raw and candid conversation delves into the complexities of dealing with trauma, the pain of unanswered prayers, and the strength found in genuine human connection. Join us as we explore the resilience of the human spirit and the healing power of vulnerability in this powerful episode.

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The episode you're about to listen to may contain some sensitive topics and definitely some F bombs. If those types of things offend you. You might want to determine if this was the right podcast for you. But however you decide to deal with the offensiveness. You're definitely going to want to listen to this final episode in a three-part series interview with our friend drew.

Nannette:

Welcome to the Mormon to medium podcast, where we'll talk about spirituality, the paranormal religion, and my journey going from Mormon to medium. I'm Nanette Wride. Thanks for listening. Now let's go have some fun. So January 30th, the 2014 is actually the day that Corey was murdered. So he was shot through the windshield of his police car. And um, Drew actually worked for the Utah County Sheriff's Department with Corey. So ripples.

Brad:

Yeah, ripples. So let's jump into that. Why, why was that significant in your faith?

Drew:

That's a great question. Uh, just for clarification, I worked corrections, Corey worked patrol, so we worked for the same agency. I only knew him in passing when I would go down to the patrol side of the department, but I knew who Corey was. And I, I want to say that he had, was teaching ethics or I know that he taught ethics a lot. And it seems to me he had taught one or two of our ethics classes before he had passed that I was in attendance to, in fact, I'm certain of it over at the Provo Justice Building.

Nannette:

It's true. I actually have that class on CD with him teaching.

Drew:

Am I in that class? I, I swear I am. I swear I'm in that class, but

Nannette:

have to see the CD and tell me if you're in that

Drew:

I've well, whenever we do ethics now, they like to show that at the beginning that class, yeah, it's powerful.

Brad:

That is very cool.

Drew:

No, it's really

Brad:

they still do that and they

Drew:

No, they honor him. They honor him and they reference his ethics teaching and then go from there. Yeah. He starts all of our ethics trainings. At least the last ones I've been to. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Nannette:

You didn't know that.

Brad:

know

Drew:

know

Nannette:

I didn't know. Oh.

Drew:

Yeah. Oh, there's going to be a lot of tears in this one. Yeah. So Nanette and I are connected by this horrible day by what follows. It's really February 4th that is my day. Um, but do you need a moment? No,

Nannette:

okay.

Drew:

okay. Okay. Alright.

Brad:

just, it's just,

Drew:

was.

Nannette:

ethics were who Cory was his integrity was his whole world. And, um, about

Drew:

the nature of

Nannette:

he always talked about the nature of a man.

Brad:

of

Drew:

But we just

Nannette:

Yeah.

Drew:

that, I want to say a month ago. I sat there and watched.

Brad:

sat there and watched

Drew:

him in that class.

Nannette:

And here I thought that the department didn't give a shit.

Brad:

a

Drew:

That's not true. That's not

Nannette:

So thank you for that.

Drew:

Yeah. Nope. He's still talked about it, especially in that class. Um,

Brad:

That's

Nannette:

a big deal. Yeah. Thank you.

Drew:

you weren't expecting that, were

Nannette:

I had no idea.

Drew:

Yeah,

Brad:

she needed to hear that. Thank you.

Nannette:

You're

Brad:

You're welcome.

Drew:

Um, so, and please, because I feel like this is our story, you know, I mean, it's your husband, but the way I'm connected in the way that our story has proliferated into our friendship over the years, uh, is pretty powerful. But, uh, so at the time, uh, let's go back to your question. I want to make sure I'm answering it. So your question was what? Right.

Brad:

I just want you to tell us about that day and what, what about that day changed who you were, who you are. Thank you.

Drew:

Okay, that's great. So, you know you you go through your law enforcement career and you think this is gonna happen once or twice, right and and You're gonna have to deal with it and because I didn't know him that well not up to this point

Brad:

um,

Drew:

I just was sad because he's a comrade. That's all I need to know. Right. It's a brother. He's a law enforcement. That's sad. And we felt it, but because he worked for our department, we really felt

Brad:

You felt it even more than

Drew:

Yeah. And if I had known him personally, I'd have felt it even more, you know, but I didn't know Corey at that point. Personally, I just knew who he was. Right. Uh, cause we're in our own bubble and corrections. Um, But he's a brother. He's on our force and he's one of us. And I felt like I was part of that team. I am part of that team. Um, but I was the honor guard supervisor at that time. So you can imagine what I know is coming down the pike in terms of what will be required of me and what I think will be required of me to honor his service

Nannette:

We'll

Brad:

Explain for those who aren't familiar what honor guard is and what that function is.

Drew:

Okay, so honor guard serves as an auxiliary of most police agencies and highway patrol or state police entities and county entities to render Services that provide decorum for things like, um, fundraisers, local county events where they can come and post the colors. That's a big duty of Honor Guard. But in the extreme, um, we would also render honors for a fallen officer or a retired officer to the extent that we would fold flags, um, and in some cases provide what they call casket guarding, uh, and Stop.

Nannette:

Uh, Okay. Stop. Yeah. So you're, you're, were you in charge of the, the officers that stood over Corey's body then too?

Drew:

No, I believe that the FOP took that particular assignment for the state FOP for the highway. They took over filling that the calendar and trust me, everybody fights to, I mean, everybody wants to do that.

Nannette:

that. Everybody from across the state stood there

Drew:

It just happened at Sergeant Hoosier's funeral. Like, you had to fight to get a

Nannette:

Well, in most people, most of the public don't realize that that is a thing. Like you stand over the body day and night, never leaving your comrade,

Drew:

take four

Nannette:

and, and coming from the widow, it's huge because you feel like, um, your family has been so violated and that you're safe has been taken away. And I know logically, you know, that they're dead, but to have harm come to them anymore, um, would just be. the worst. And so to know that they're safe and being watched over, the widow can actually rest. Does that make sense? I mean, logically it doesn't make much sense, but it's really what happens.

Drew:

sense. I'll take it a step further. And this is my own take on honor guard. But

Brad:

you

Drew:

They call us the thin blue line. We step into the breach, right? As Governor Cox said the other day at that funeral, you know, we step into the breach and we are the, we are, we are the last line of defense between chaos and order. That's who we are. Um, and all of us wear different hats in that collective effort, right? Um, that thin blue line gets very thick when an officer is killed. It's no longer thin. And we will not tolerate the desecration of someone's memory. We will stand as the biggest freaking buffer you have ever seen between honoring that officer's life and anybody that would seek to impugn the character of the officer, its department, or law enforcement in general. This is why you have people like the, the civil, uh, organization, uh, the Patriot Guard. They will come and stand as a buffer around the officers who are standing as a buffer around the family. Um, it's crazy, but. Yeah, we, we're not going to put up with it. We, we are not quiet about an officer's loss of life and we're going to put on the biggest show you have ever seen. It's deliberate, it's calculated, and we shut down highways, we shut down on ramps, and for those few hours, all eyes are on that family. And in this case, uh, and as in most cases, the stuff behind the scenes leading up to the funeral, which is the, the, the final thing, you have all of this going on. You have officers who literally sit with the body. So the minute that body's released from the medical examiner, There's going to be an officer with that body until it's interred. In

Brad:

who sit in front of the home of the family who lost the officer.

Drew:

Then you, yeah. And so, and that was going on too. So not only is the family's home guarded, because sometimes you have all sorts of psychotic people out there, especially where they haven't been caught, but there's always somebody with the body. So, you know, I remember, I remember Cory being brought to Walker and, uh, and you know, and he was never left alone after that

Nannette:

No, no. And it was, it was so comforting for our family to know that he was safe. He

Drew:

and even the day of the funeral, I mean, just, you look at the way the hearse has come down the highway, you've got four officers on each side, motor on each side of that, or four total, two front two, two in the back. And then you have a, you have a whole host of motors in front and then his agency behind, I mean. Yeah, that's just what we do.

Nannette:

we do.

Drew:

I was, you know, my, my responsibility that day and, and the days leading up to it were to get my team ready to fold flags, to pre fold the flags for each of your children. And I believe his mother.

Nannette:

Uh huh.

Drew:

So we ended up folding. I think you have five children, right?

Nannette:

children and his mom.

Drew:

Mom, so we had seven, we did six, seven total, and we, we saved the, the, the last flag for the presiding matriarch, which in that case is you, because you're the wife, you're the wife, so,

Nannette:

your

Drew:

yeah, and had you, had you been single or not been married, then it would have been mom, I believe, but yeah, so we fold your flag there on site, um, And my responsibility was to just make sure that I took care of the flags that day, uh, because of the scope of the funeral, uh, and all the things that needed to happen. We broke up all the other honors, like calling 1042, last call to dispatch and whoever's in charge of them. And then we had the seven of the 21 volleys or seven gun salute, 21 volleys, uh, Or three volleys of seven rounds, which is 21 guns. They call it, but anyhow, somebody else is in charge of that. Then the flyover obviously is handled by people that are, you know, attached to the aviation wing of law enforcement. So, but there's a lot going on, but my particular task that day was to, fold flags and then to hold the United States honor flag, which was flown in just for that.

Nannette:

Can you explain what that is? is? Yeah,

Drew:

the United States honor flag is a flag that was flown at ground zero. And then it was flown

Nannette:

What

Brad:

And when you say Ground Zero, you mean the Twin Towers?

Drew:

Twin Towers. Um, And then it was taken and flown at the Texas State Assembly there, and there was three officers that were killed there, and they wanted that flag, brought to their memorial, and it just grew from there, as I understand it, to that flag being flown to any time an officer was killed in the line of duty if that agency wanted it, and I believe, Heisler, is his name, was the gentleman that's in charge of that, And he reached out to our department and that was flown in, I believe from Dallas and a cool experience with that. It was, I got to go to the airport and receive that flag and, I believe, memory serves that it is, it's got a secret service transponder in it, it's like a national relic, and when it's assigned to you, it's yours, and you are accountable for

Nannette:

Well, and you have to wear gloves

Drew:

wear gloves.

Nannette:

you can't touch it.

Drew:

No, there's, then you come to so many gloves. One for you, the, the caretaker, and then, uh, your team that will be folding. So, all of the flags that we folded for your family, we wore the United States Honor Flag gloves, and I believe we gave those

Nannette:

You did. Yeah, you did. I have

Drew:

I would love to see those actually, um,

Brad:

yeah.

Drew:

I remember wearing those and I remember giving those to you. In fact, I have a picture of me walking over and didn't, I knelt down and handed you the flag as to, you know, I had to say what you say and not break form. Still, that was, that's, that's a big way how you and I are connected, but it gets, it gets more. Powerful than that. So I remember standing there holding the United States honor flag. This is where we're going to go now because this is

Brad:

Yeah, this is a

Nannette:

this

Drew:

the sky cracks.

Nannette:

go now? Well, well, and, and the, the honor flag also has meaning for this funeral because Corey served his mission in New York. So it's kind of a universal tie, you know, the universe is like, yeah, this is, this is part of you. So.

Brad:

so

Drew:

That's right, and I, by way of coincidence, graduated high school in upstate New York. So, uh, you talk about full circle, uh, there are no, there are no

Nannette:

No, no.

Drew:

Um, but anyhow, so I'm standing there holding the United States honor flag, um,

Brad:

and

Drew:

team is folding that flag, and, uh, And I remember looking over at you. I remember looking at your kids

Brad:

And

Drew:

just, and I, I have pictures.

Nannette:

Mm hmm.

Drew:

I don't want to make you cry, but I, I keep those pictures because the picture catches the moment. Like there's just this look in your face. Like

Brad:

face,

Drew:

my whole world is sitting in that coffin.

Nannette:

sitting in that coffin. Yep. Facts. My whole world in a dog.

Brad:

a dog. A lot of people don't realize that part. Tell

Drew:

Tell me about that. Or is

Nannette:

Cory's canine, Dex. Um, at the viewing, I opened his casket and put him in there at Cory's feet.

Brad:

you

Drew:

you did?

Nannette:

Yeah, so he's buried with Dex.

Brad:

Oh,

Drew:

that's awesome.

Brad:

did not

Drew:

I did not know

Nannette:

He loved that dog so much and we had him cremated in his box was in our house and we didn't know where to put him and we loved him so much. He just was in our house. And so it felt right. He needed to be with Corey.

Drew:

That's powerful. I did not know that.

Nannette:

Not very many people do now. Everyone will, but

Brad:

Now everyone does. Now everyone

Drew:

So I remember looking over at you and I remember thinking, what do you say to a woman who's going through this? Like what, what do you say? Like there's nothing to say, like there, there are no words. And I thought, well, surely my religion has something, right? It's the bomb, right? It's going to heal. It's going to fix. And I thought,

Brad:

don't

Drew:

I don't know what to say to her. I'm going through my own horror. I mean, not to turn this into me, but I mean, I'm having an experience. I'm there. I'm watching you suffer. And And I'm going, Oh, I don't like how I feel right now. And I remember pleading and praying and nothing. I couldn't feel anything. And I thought, this is garbage. No matter how worthy or unworthy someone may think I am or am not, why can't I access the spirit in this moment to comfort me? And I never felt more alone in my life than I did, which is terrible thing to say. If I'm looking at you, like, what did I lose? You know? And I didn't. lose my spouse. Nobody died for me except my comrade. But I'm, you know what I'm saying? It's

Nannette:

I understand.

Drew:

you know, it's my loss doesn't even begin to compare to yours. And so I feel incredibly selfish even thinking for a second that I should ask for comfort, that I should be pleading to God, like I should be praying for you, you know, and, uh, and so I did. That's what I did. I was just like, well, strengthen her, strengthen these kids. We'll deal with me later. Right. And so later came, you know, but I remember part of me just died that day. I remember part of me just, and not to be indelicate, but it's the right word. Um, the religion that I grew up with didn't show up when I made it a really simple plea to be comforted. And I remember praying for you and that felt good. I, I just felt so lost. Like this was, maybe it's trauma. Maybe,

Brad:

that's what it

Drew:

maybe it was a kind of trauma on my own. Again, I don't mean to make it sound like this is my story, but it's just

Nannette:

it is, it's your perspective

Drew:

my perspective on

Nannette:

story that we experienced, but it's still your healing journey. It's your perspective and it's important.

Brad:

important. And

Drew:

I just thought, Oh man, I cannot feel God right now. This is such a godless moment. I remember saying that very clearly. This is such a godless moment.

Brad:

And yet

Drew:

the thing that I'll never forget that the source of strength didn't come from above. It came from every uniformed and non uniformed person standing with you on that cemetery. I have a picture of that too. And the freezing cold of a jet of a February 4th day, I believe it was February 4th.

Nannette:

think it was the 5th.

Drew:

Was it the

Nannette:

I think it was the 5th, yeah.

Drew:

Yeah. Remember

Nannette:

Tens of thousands of people.

Drew:

just crazy.

Nannette:

Yeah. And

Drew:

And I remember standing there watching the caisson come by and you were on top of that. I did not know that. So that explains

Nannette:

Yeah. And so I didn't even realize that until I got to the cemetery and the horse drawn carriage comes

Brad:

And

Nannette:

and he's, he looks at me and he says, do you want to drive him to his final resting place?

Brad:

to drive him to his final resting place? Wow. Ahem.

Drew:

So

Brad:

wow.

Drew:

before I cry

Nannette:

so I, so I got to drive all the horses and him,

Brad:

the

Drew:

that's so cool.

Brad:

That's so cool.

Drew:

Fitzgerald Peterson

Nannette:

Yes. He was amazing and he's given me so many,

Drew:

He passed away.

Nannette:

I know I was

Drew:

was I. He was the one person who believed I didn't say the one person. He was the first person, first responder of any kind that ever came up to me and says, I love the work you do in those shadow boxes. He was the biggest fan of my work with. with Fallen Officer Memorials. He loved, he called me his brother. He said you are a very special person. He made me feel so good about what I do. Uh,

Nannette:

You do beautiful

Drew:

well, thank you.

Nannette:

just

Drew:

I'll always be grateful for Peterson for that. I mean, I will miss Fitz for that alone. Cause he, he had, he had a unique way of making you feel special and important when you were around him. And he was a big tough ass captain in the fire, but he was a, he

Nannette:

didn't see that

Drew:

no, well, he had the look, but he had a personality of a,

Nannette:

He was very gentle.

Drew:

a gentle man and he saw good where good was

Nannette:

And the photos he took.

Drew:

were crazy.

Nannette:

Unreal gorgeous.

Drew:

So I have a bunch of those. I'll miss him

Nannette:

Some of the, oh snapshots that

Brad:

you had to

Nannette:

you had to just be there

Drew:

I have a picture with him at the black and blue gala that we were at the one that we took our picture. And that's just a prize picture of mine.

Nannette:

I love that.

Drew:

picture with him. It's so cool. But, um, so anyhow, so my deconstruction, my unraveling starts, I realized something happened at the, at the gravesite. I'm like. What's happening here. And I remember going home, going, I can't feel the spirit. I can't feel anything. This is terrible. Not mind you this there's trauma, there's trauma happening here. I have a comrade who's been killed, but there's also this trauma of feeling betrayed by my religion. I remember asking myself, what does this remind you of? See, one of the things my therapist has taught me over the years is whenever we're triggered to ask ourselves, what does this remind you of? What does this seem similar to? And then the healing question is, how is it different? Or how can it be different? And I love doing that. I do that all the time. So I'll encounter a moment and go, Oh, this reminds me of that. Okay. Now, how can it be different?

Brad:

Yeah. Do you know what's funny about that is just yesterday, Nan and I were driving around.

Drew:

look he gave her

Brad:

Yeah, just yesterday we were driving and she goes, you know what? When people are triggered, it is literally an opportunity for them to heal.

Nannette:

was like,

Brad:

I was like, wow.

Nannette:

is

Brad:

That is really profound because it is, you get that triggering moment and most people are like, Oh, I'm going to avoid this because I get triggered rather than going, I got triggered. How can I heal from this? How can I grow from this?

Drew:

well, and I knew I was triggered, but I hadn't, I hadn't evolved to the point where I could ask that question, um, because I was just dealing with the fact that things were unraveling and that's. That's messy. I know, you know, this where the unraveling can be probably one of the most ugly times in your life because it's chaotic and it doesn't make sense. And, and you're wanting to make sense. And it's just like, if we're going to clean the wound, we've got to clean it full stop. We've got to clean all of it. And so it's like, no, just quick, just dump the antiseptic in and let's stitch. And it's like, no, that's not how we're going to clean this wound. And this is, it's a really crude analogy. I'm not doing it justice, but I think you get my point. Um, Theological wounds and existential wounds can be

Nannette:

about,

Drew:

problematic because what ends up happening when we deconstruct

Nannette:

the,

Drew:

a religiously held narrative or belief about ourselves is we are deconstructing our identity at times. And if you really want to feel naked,

Nannette:

who

Drew:

suddenly realize that you don't know who you are.

Nannette:

You know, it's funny because just days after the funeral, I remember going to church and bearing my testimony, you know, that I knew the church was true. And then when I sat down, I went, I still don't feel anything. I don't feel comfort. I don't. So when you're saying you feel these things, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Except for, uh, all in the same breath. I'm seeing spirits with my eyes and I'm seeing dark ones in the middle of the day and I don't know what the hell to do with that. And then I'm seeing where bodies are and how people are murdered and where their bodies are going to be and all the things like I'm, I'm freaked out and no one is there to help me on top of dealing with the loss of my husband and my children that are a mess. And I mean, I would literally curl up in my, in our master bedroom closet with his clothes on the floor. And I would curl up and just sob

Brad:

Cause

Drew:

I,

Nannette:

there was no peace. There was no answer to anything. And I was relentless with God at that point to be like, no, I am not swallowing that. He's just gone. It's no. No.

Drew:

But there's something deeply beautiful about what you just said. I just pictured you curling up on his clothes in the closet. That's beautiful. Like, that's how you grieved. And you just went there. That may not make sense to anybody else, but it made perfect sense to me. Uh, does that make sense? I hope, I hope I do. You know,

Nannette:

I, all I had left was the feeling of his energy and the smell of his clothes. That's all I had. And that's where I went to grieve because I could, I could tangibly touch that. And you know, I didn't realize that Corey really was there, that my frequency is what was off at the time because I was in such great pain. Deep, immense grief. But the day that we went to go pick his body up, I went in to take a shower and I'm telling you, I'm still in my scrubs from days before. Okay. I'm like, I'm, I'm a mess. I'm wearing his sweatshirt and his ball cap. And in my mind, he's forgotten his toothbrush and he couldn't leave. Right. But I get into the shower and the shower disappears. And I see him with my human eyes.

Drew:

Through this,

Nannette:

It's like he's in a window so I can see him from the waist up and I can see tears in his royal blue eyes and he talked to me with his mind, not with his mouth and he, and my first thought was you would come to me when I'm naked.

Drew:

when I'm naked.

Nannette:

And he laughed like that. And then he said, dang it, I thought we had more time. And then he said, I am like, I want to know about the guy that killed you. I want, and I'm like, look, I don't know. With my fingers up, like naming things off as I'm still looking straight at him. And he's like, Shh, but he said it with his mind, not with his mouth. He goes, I only have a minute like this with his finger. And then he reaches out and he tips his head and he pets my face with his hand. He says, you are so beautiful and I love you so much. I will never ever leave you. And he was gone that fast. And I stood there with the water spring in my face. Saying, I just saw him with my eyes and if I can see him once, I can see him again. How do I figure this out? And that was so real and I'm not crazy and oh my God, what do I do with this? I went to my bishop. I went to other people in the word and no one could help me. No one. Like here you're supposed to be the church of Jesus Christ, but no one could help me and there were no answers. There was no peace until I went inside. of my spirit. And that is where I found peace. So I understand you so much.

Drew:

I'm going to tell you a story just because I feel prompted to tell it. So, to affirm that, um, the opposite. Um, you meet Cory after he passes, right? So, gah, this can't be. But we keep coming back to my daughter. But, so, you know, I For the listeners in the podcast, lest you think I'm a well adjusted man. I've been married divorced three times there. I said it

Nannette:

said it. And, uh,

Drew:

And the first two marriages were ingloriously short lived

Brad:

um,

Drew:

And I was a student at BYU and you know, you get married so you can have sex, right? And then you realize that that's a terrible reason to get married or if Jeff Foxworthy says, you know, if you want free peanuts. You don't have to buy a jumbo jet to get them. There's a lot more cost efficient ways about going that about that. So, um, so

Nannette:

I love it.

Brad:

Uh,

Drew:

after my second divorce, I just thought I'm the common denominator in two failed marriages. Maybe it's me. It seemed like an honest self reflection, you know? So I hired a therapist and started doing work and I stayed single for four years. Uh, and I remember after the, I hope I don't get emotional. It's such a cool story.

Brad:

that, um, I

Drew:

I remember laying as August 16th, I'll never forget it. August 16th, 2000. I'm just

Brad:

just exhausted, you

Drew:

know, emotionally. I'm going to lose another marriage. Lose another relationship. I'm going to have another scarlet D on my forehead. As a student at BYU.

Brad:

BYU. That's a big deal at

Drew:

it's huge. I mean, it's, it's just the scarlet letter. I mean, it's Nathaniel Hawthorne's book all over again, except it's not adultery. It's divorce, right? But, um, what was her name? Hester Prynne. I think that was the character. But anyhow, I felt like Hester Prynne. And, uh, see, you're a geek too. Don't

Nannette:

He is. Oh, he

Brad:

I like to read.

Drew:

Yeah. So anyhow, uh, I've got these scarlet D's. I've got this woeful self image and I'm just full of, you know, riddled with divorce shame. And I figure I've got to get myself healthy, right? I've got to, I've got to start doing some work because I'm it. And you know, my therapist succinctly looks at me and says, uh, congratulations. You've married your mom twice.

Brad:

Oh, snap. Ouch.

Drew:

And I just, uh, it hurt, but it was accurate. I'm like, you're wrong. It's very Freudian reference, but he was, he was right. Because I'd started this session with that bitch, this and that bitch, that and woohoo, boohoo, you know, come here, doc, give me my bandaid. Right. And I'm just lambasting into the second wife and, and all the horrible things she had done and she wasn't, she wasn't the nicest person, but he said,

Nannette:

I

Drew:

I appreciate that you're hurting and I appreciate that you're in pain. She's not here. You are

Brad:

I'm

Drew:

not really interested in what she did to you. I'm really interested in how terrible why she was.

Nannette:

am

Drew:

I am interested in the man that thought it was okay to be married to that for three years. I'd like to talk to him. I'd like to talk to the person that thought it was okay to put it up with that type of abuse. Let's talk to him. Cause that's the only one that's going to fix this situation. I've never forgotten that session. That was a watershed moment in therapy. Right? Just as like, do you want to fix your shit? Cause you're the problem. You keep choosing mom. You keep choosing abusive women. Here's, here's why you gotta go do work. Cause you will marry your mom. You will marry the dynamic you haven't resolved. I promise you, you

Brad:

the dynamic you haven't resolved. And I promise you, you will.

Nannette:

Amen.

Drew:

And so when I, you know,

Brad:

went through that,

Drew:

I went through that. I just was like, Oh, I got work to do. But I remember laying there despondent one day, just hopeless. And I know you have some sense of this and I'm laying on the floor and I fall asleep and I sleep all day

Nannette:

the

Drew:

into the night. Like I just don't move. I'm on the floor. I don't move. I lay there all day, all night. And somewhere in the middle of the night, I have this dream. Oh, I'm going to get emotional. And

Brad:

gets really, really,

Drew:

the room just gets really, really, really white.

Brad:

wasn't, I've had dreams

Drew:

like, and it was, I've had dreams before,

Brad:

know.

Drew:

but this was different. And I just looked up and there's this little girl and I can't see her face. But now that I see my little girl, I'm like, that was Mailey. And she says, hang in there, daddy. I'm coming.

Brad:

Wow.

Nannette:

I thought, why the hell am

Drew:

the hell am I supposed to get that? Like, it felt cruel. Like I didn't have a wife. Like, I had no sense that I'd have a family, but I, I knew her voice. I'm like, how do you know somebody you've never met? So, you know, I say the opposite. He met he meets you after he dies. I'm meeting my daughter before she's born And she's she's the tether. She's the anchor to ashley. This is why I can never speak ill of ashley She's the mother of that little girl,

Nannette:

little

Drew:

you know She served her purpose And even though she couldn't stay with me, she's the mother of that little girl in that dream. That will always be sacred to me. I won't ever let anybody talk bad about Ashley. Or, especially my daughter. But,

Nannette:

Beautiful experience. Yeah. Wow.

Drew:

And so, nothing in my religious faith though prepared me for that. This was so, and I know you know this from talking to Corey, like, you think your religion can explain the experience, it can't even touch it.

Nannette:

No, not even

Drew:

am I right? I mean, was that your

Nannette:

even close, yep.

Drew:

Nothing in my religion prepared me for the emotionality of that experience. We talk about our, our dead ancestors.

Nannette:

dead

Drew:

We don't talk about people that we meet before they're born. You have a couple old Testament references to that. Mostly it's Jesus,

Nannette:

I do. I do. So

Drew:

but I'm just saying, I met my daughter and she said, hang in there, daddy, I'm coming. Well, that meant what

Nannette:

You're going to be a

Drew:

to get mad. I'm going to be a dad someday. I'll probably be married. And so I, I just had hope.

Nannette:

Yeah. That's hope. Yeah.

Drew:

And so I had this hope that I would, and so I just started to live right. So I could meet this little girl, and I felt like every decision I made, every thought I had, every action I took, had to be in furtherance of realizing this vision that I've been given, you know, uh, and even though I no longer am a practicing or believing member of the Church of Jesus Christ, literally since there, I said the brand,

Nannette:

brand, right, Mormon, I had to put balance in

Drew:

Yeah, um,

Nannette:

win for Satan.

Drew:

Nobody's gonna tell me that that experience was anything other than what it was and I don't need religion to describe it I don't need theological constructs or or Doctrine to explain and it's it's not for anybody else to explain

Brad:

it's

Nannette:

a spiritual thing.

Drew:

it's spiritual and I think you know I could see you cry when I said it like you you could tell the truth of that like it's the most real thing I've ever experienced that that transcends my senses Of any experience I've ever had in life that goes beyond my five senses, that was the moment. And it told me no matter how broken I was at that moment, no matter how messed up my childhood was still informing my, my partner choices, you know, in marriage. Here I am trying to live the script, stay chaste, marry in the temple. Uh, and I keep choosing, Not so good partners and I'm not so healthy myself and yet whatever is divine and super organizing out there said, I'm going to let you see your daughter.

Nannette:

To give you hope

Drew:

I'm going to, I'm going to let you see your future.

Nannette:

right?

Drew:

Cause I didn't, I wasn't hoping a whole lot after that second divorce. I was pretty bad

Nannette:

divorce, I

Drew:

And, and so to meet your daughter

Nannette:

so to meet

Drew:

and then to know her,

Nannette:

born, and then to know her. You

Drew:

well, no, I knew. So I'll never forget this day. I think it was like may

Nannette:

uh,

Brad:

no.

Drew:

sometime. I want to say October. It was late October, maybe early November. Ashley and I go to eat at Cafe Rio in Spanish Fork and, and she's not feeling so well and she goes, man, I just have not felt well the past couple of days. And, and I said, do you think you have the flu? And she's playing with me. She already knows that she's pregnant. And so we're sitting there eating and, uh,

Brad:

uh,

Drew:

she goes, I just found out I'm pregnant and I said, stop. And I knew it was Meili.

Nannette:

just got full body chills.

Drew:

Like as soon as she said that, I said. Malie's coming, isn't she? And, you know, I didn't know that her name would be Malie, but I'm like, my little girl's coming. The girl in the dream. Sure shit. We go to the ultrasound in January,

Nannette:

and it's a girl, huh?

Drew:

very clearly a girl. Um, and I, and then I'm just, I'm just a giddy, giddy mess. And then she said her name's gonna be Malie, and I, I never fought Ashley. She named all our kids. She did a great job. Um, our kids have great names, and I'm really grateful to her for that. But, uh, she called her Malie, and so, yeah. She was born. Um. Um, you know, whatever happened with me in the LDS church, nothing could ever touch that experience. I just, for some reason, when you told me about Corey, I thought, well, how cool to tell this side, tell that same kind of story before they were born,

Nannette:

Yeah,

Drew:

you know, to meet your daughter before she's born. Nobody will ever tell me that it was a dream.

Brad:

No, well, you're not the first person to. Tell us a similar story when we talked to Scott, the barber, he had a similar situation where he knew this little girl was his daughter that he met while he was actually on a, uh, a mushroom journey and she was tugging on his leg. And he's like, that's my little girl, same type of an idea he,

Drew:

daughter now.

Brad:

he does.

Nannette:

Mm-Hmm.

Drew:

that's so

Brad:

And he, he goes, I know that was her without a doubt. It's not uncommon. I think, I think these souls are bound to us. I think we are, I don't know. There's like a contract that we, we are involved in where

Drew:

If

Brad:

have these connections, we will always have these connections in one way or another. And I strongly believe

Drew:

way or another. And I strongly believe that. That are my children, you know, consanguinity

Nannette:

Um,

Drew:

word,

Brad:

Thank you. Yeah, that,

Drew:

be a jackass

Brad:

that's a five star word right there. What the

Nannette:

ha ha!

Drew:

barricade or,

Nannette:

Ha ha ha ha! Yeah, but I feel that

Drew:

but I feel that way about you guys strongly. I'm like, no, I'm supposed to know them

Nannette:

ten friends.

Drew:

you

Brad:

and you look at

Drew:

have like 10 friends. You guys are definitely in the 10 most or part of that top 10 most influential people of

Nannette:

crazy is you two knew each other.

Drew:

are not just you he is too

Nannette:

Yeah. But you two knew each other long before we knew each other. Yeah.

Brad:

Yeah.

Drew:

And what's funny is it my memory of Brad before I knew that he was with you was very antagonistic. I didn't like

Brad:

make sure. I

Drew:

I hate it. Brad made my LEO experience miserable. It's because Brad was making me get real with myself. And so you add that, that lack of confidence that you saw her, the over intellectualizing, which by the way, my therapist doesn't like my intellectualizing either. So you and her would have a lot to talk about. She's always telling me. Yeah. No, let's go back to what you were feeling. I know you have all this education and you've done all this therapy. Let's go back to what you were feeling. I never want to feel right.

Brad:

feel right, right, right. So you know, that's going to be the buzzword for the rest of this episode is drew. How do you feel about that?

Drew:

yeah. Bring me Brad. Brad, Brad discovered my brokenness probably better than any other person. Long before, uh, long before, yeah, long before most people did. He, he, he was able to call my shit out, but,

Brad:

you know, I think those types of environments where there's. A lot of pressure and a lot of, uh, uncomfortable situations, bring that up and bring out that opportunity to really delve in and go, okay, where's this person? And you learn to see it and you learn to recognize it and you learn to call it out. And it's not always a gentle call out. So I apologize

Drew:

you don't need to apologize. Look,

Brad:

you're not the only one. I've got other folks who are my cadets who go, yeah, you weren't exactly gentle with me

Nannette:

was a dick, let's just say

Drew:

a dick?

Nannette:

not even sitting

Drew:

here I am sitting in your home, and we're friends, so

Nannette:

I'm

Drew:

I'm probably better off. So, how many of them are your friends?

Nannette:

All of them. All of

Drew:

Okay, there you go. So you did it right. So you

Brad:

I hope so. Yeah.

Drew:

No, you and your friends do that for you. And I wouldn't have remembered you as a friend that way. But no, but what just going back to that briefly, and we can tie it into just life is what that revealed to me was that I had unresolved trauma. Going through the police academy reminded me that I had a very dysregulated nervous system. I can say that now because I can look back at it with my new education and my new, my, you know, my new therapeutic insights and go, Well, I would see the same thing if I were a trainer, and I'm seeing it with the, the new hires that I get, the new guys in corrections. I

Brad:

yeah, I,

Drew:

I, I can really come at this from a very informed way. And I still have that tone like you did with me, where I'm like, I, I appreciate you're going through this. Nevertheless, there's a, there's a performance expectation here and I need you to meet it. And if you can't, let's talk about how we can get to there, you know, what, what we need to do.

Brad:

Yeah. What's the next step?

Drew:

What's the next step? And so, um.

Brad:

but

Drew:

So I meet my daughter and, um, yeah, that, that was the tether. So where are we now going back to the graveside? You meet Corey. We've left the graveside now he's interred. And now, now it really starts to unravel.

Brad:

you

Nannette:

this is part of the story you

Drew:

This, this is part of the story you guys don't know. Uh, so here you go. Get ready for a shocking number. I still have a little booklet too. Um, I doubled down cause it's not what we do when we feel like we're the problem. Then isn't that the, isn't that the stick? Isn't that the rub in the LDS church? You know, if,

Brad:

be a lazy learner. You've got

Drew:

you know, I have a library that tells you I'm not a lazy learner and me and Sandra Tanner can tell you all about it. Um, but, uh.

Brad:

I

Drew:

I doubled down and said, you know, whenever you're having a spiritual crisis, you're the problem, right? Couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the theology or the people saying that they speak for God. It's always you. It's always so pejorative. It's a nasty little shtick because on the one hand, you're the object of God's all loving and omniscient divine attention until you're not getting it right. Then there must be something wrong with you. It's always, you're just always the problem. And that was exacerbating this sense of self that my mother was beating me and telling me I'm ugly. I was always a bad seed. Now I'm just, uh, I'm always the problem. I'm a bad seed. I'm not good enough for God. And it's just starting to coalesce into this rolling ball of ugly, you know? And so I'm like, well, I'm going to read the book of Mormon because you know, it is the most correct book of any book on earth,

Brad:

Of course it is.

Drew:

And so, um, Hold on to your hats.

Brad:

it's a, a literal translation and history.

Drew:

A literal pile of prevaricated

Nannette:

Prevaricated. I'm

Brad:

barica

Drew:

putting it really nicely. Most historians are like, no, you need to be harsher. But um,

Nannette:

From

Drew:

but from February, right after the funeral until June

Brad:

of

Drew:

2014, I read the book of Mormon.

Brad:

20.

Drew:

26 times.

Nannette:

She's a pizzo.

Drew:

And it was finally on the last time. No, I took notes. There are some days where I had it on audible and I would run it double. I'd be on the treadmill. I would listen to it at the gym. There are some times where I read the Book of Mormon in three days. I did that multiple times because I'm a nerd, right? I thought if I'll just keep reading the book, you talk about a trauma response. Looking back at it now, I had operationalized my theology to be the very source of healing when in fact. It was only compounding the trauma. But what ended up happening from reading the Book of Mormon 26 times and not feeling a damn thing was I went, wait a minute. I prayed on a cemetery lawn and got nothing. I exercised what I thought was a sincere gesture of faith by saying, okay, Lord,

Brad:

I

Drew:

I didn't feel anything there. I'm going to give you that. Maybe you're wanting me to do something. I'll go ahead and read the Book of Mormon. You said it's the most correct book of any book, right? And I sincerely read it with the desire that something would happen inside me.

Brad:

inside me. Imagine

Drew:

Imagine reading that book 26 times and not feeling anything.

Brad:

they tell you, right? Is you read the book of Mormon and you'll know it's true. You'll feel that it's true. You'll have a testimony that it is true. After just reading it once, right?

Nannette:

Dude,

Brad:

But 26 times.

Nannette:

I read first Nephi 26 times.

Brad:

Nephi, having been born of goodly parents. I've, we shouldn't make light because there are some people who really still believe in that very, very heavily. But. Because you weren't a lazy learner and because you jumped into it wholeheartedly.

Drew:

I thought it was the most faithful gesture I'd ever made in my life. But the most faithful was pleading on the cemetery lawn, looking at you and feeling that void and going, God, please, you know, to use the Joseph Smith language. Why are you covering? Where's the pavilion, you know? Well, why aren't you here? Do you not see what's happening? Do you not see what's going on here? Could you please just be here with me? Nothing.

Nannette:

But that was your answer.

Brad:

answer.

Drew:

Oh, you bet it was.

Nannette:

Yeah.

Brad:

was. Yeah.

Drew:

And I thought, well, no, it's maybe it's me. I'll just read the Book of Mormon.

Brad:

Nothing.

Drew:

And I went, you don't answer my prayers. I don't feel anything when I read the Book of Mormon. I'm sorry. Those are pretty big gestures and I'm doing the best I believe that I can. And I thought, and this is where mom's voice comes up again. Here's where all that no confidence comes up. Well, it must be me. I just must not be a good person. I was like, no. And I remember slamming my fist down going, no, it's not me. Something's wrong here. Did

Brad:

discussions with any of your ecclesiastical leaders about this? No.

Drew:

have discussions with any of your ecclesiastical leaders about

Brad:

they do. Screw the victim, let's make sure that

Drew:

the victim. Let's make sure that legally we can come out smelling like roses on this one. Give me a break. Yeah so, um

Brad:

um, anyhow, I said,

Drew:

said something's not right here and this is right about the time that I stumbled upon One of the books I had in my library by Fawn Brody called No Man Knows My History, and she was excoriated. She was a pariah after she wrote this book. It was a more authentic portrayal of Joseph Smith. I want to say 60s. She was the, I think, the niece of David O. McKay, but she was excoriated for writing this book. I thought, why? If the history is what it is,

Nannette:

read it. And I

Drew:

let's just read it. And I thought, well, I'm gonna read

Nannette:

we hide our history.

Drew:

or we prevaricate our history. Um, that's the proper use of that word. Yeah. We just mix it with a little bit of, uh, truth or we leave out details. Like she was 14 years old, I don't know. So story for another

Brad:

our Emma didn't really appreciate all of the plural marriage. She didn't appreciate all of the uh, other stuff either.

Drew:

Yeah,

Brad:

you hear about is she was such a loving, kind wife. They had such a great relationship. Yeah. Until you read Mormon Enigma and then you go, wait a minute, she called Bullshit from the very beginning.

Drew:

sure did. Um,

Nannette:

Um

Drew:

yeah, well, yeah, their book. I have that book too. Um, Mormon Enigma. I forget who authored that, but I,

Brad:

the two ladies,

Drew:

there's two ladies.

Brad:

of their names either.

Drew:

Yeah, I thought one of them was an attorney. One of them's, but anyhow, I could be wrong on that. Um, but the book that was the watershed moment for me, the book that. turned everything on its head. Uh, because, well, let me backtrack for a second. So I read that book and I went, wow, I did not know that. And so my next question was, what else don't I know?

Brad:

Yeah. That was,

Drew:

was, that was kind of the watershed question. I went, wait,

Brad:

didn't I

Drew:

why didn't I know about this? This isn't in our, I didn't learn that in seminary.

Brad:

Well, and that's the next question you have to ask is, why don't I know this? There you go. Why was I not taught this? You Brad Wilcox it and go, Well, maybe the question isn't, what else don't I know? Maybe the question needs to be, Drew, why don't I know this? Why don't you just

Drew:

isn't why, why did Joseph Smith marry mothers and daughters? It should be why did he marry the grandma too?

Brad:

Exactly! Let's

Drew:

catch this. Yeah, no Brad, that sounded really creepy all over the place.

Nannette:

but people hear that

Brad:

But people hear that stuff and they go, Oh yeah, Brad Wilcox. He's such a great speaker and he's so wise and the way he makes it. So I just

Drew:

the lilt and the condescension in, in all of their voices, their tone, they, they, they prey on these young suspecting minds that are just full of hormones that are neat for sensationalism. I mean, give them glow sticks and some EDM music and they would believe anything, man. It's just the goofiest shit.

Nannette:

ghost beacon, I am. A

Brad:

pentameter as you give your conference talk and people will feel it.

Nannette:

eagles.

Drew:

it's like, or when they say that you can see, what are they, the chiasmus, there's like, you could see that this is clearly a true book because of the chiasmus. I'm like, He plagiarized it. Of course it has chiasmus. Oh, nevermind. I'm just, nevermind. But,

Brad:

Sorry, I tend to sidetrack these conversations. I know, it's good.

Nannette:

He's 14.

Drew:

Yeah, it happens. You're old enough to have a vision for an entire church.

Brad:

Oh,

Nannette:

See, that

Brad:

that is my new response to you, Nan. You're right. Thank you, Drew. Thank you.

Drew:

Dude, have an epiphany and start a church, dude, but you ain't getting any of my money.

Brad:

What's the reason then, you know, that that's kind of like any Colt, right? Colts are pretty cool. If you're the leader, because

Nannette:

cool, if

Drew:

That's true if you're the leader. Anyhow, so

Nannette:

the leader. Anyhow, so

Brad:

not starting a

Drew:

I, I won't and I He's

Nannette:

That's our son, he's worried about us a little.

Brad:

a little. Then you have to isolate the women from

Drew:

have to be charismatic enough.

Brad:

make sure

Drew:

Then you have to isolate the women from the men and then make sure you do that.

Nannette:

Yeah, that'll never

Drew:

Yeah. And have rife, rife with patriarchy. Anyhow. So I thought, why don't I know this thing? So then I went and read the book, the book that nuclear destruction to everything. Um, Michael D Quinn. Mormonism in the Magic Worldview. That book

Nannette:

was

Drew:

was catastrophic to me. It, demonstrated, and this is a Yale educated historian that the church hired, who sadly became, I believe, one of the September 6th, when Boyd K. Packer was trying to clean house. But, um, he authored this book called Mormonism, Magic Worldview. He went on to write, um, uh, a three book tome on, um,

Nannette:

uh,

Drew:

priesthood. I think one of them is called Extensions of Power, the other one. But it looked at the, the genesis of, of LDS Priesthood and the fact that you can see the power structure and the power elite come from six bloodlines out of Nauvoo, I believe it is. And it looks at how priesthood is tied to those bloodlines in one sense. And, um, but anyhow, let's go back to Mormonism, Magic Worldview. Um, Yeah, we talk about cults. I mean Joseph Smith was clearly influenced by the occult or magic and mysticism and you know, he's wearing, he's wearing the Jupiter talisman. Um, he's, He's drawing circles with pentagrams and slitting goats throats and trying to find Captain Kidd's treasure, and somebody here in the circle isn't worthy enough, and that's why we can't keep him. The treasure keeps getting pulled back down to earth. I mean, just goofy stuff, and people are buying this, you know. Or you look at his plagiarizing of Masonic rituals.

Nannette:

Why do you think people bought this stuff? Because I don't see me buying it,

Drew:

Buying what?

Nannette:

buying any of his shit. Like I, I don't think I would have

Drew:

you

Brad:

mean at the time? At the

Nannette:

the time, if I lived there and, and was watching this happen, I would be like, yeah, he's nuts. But I don't understand. He must've been so charismatic and so on his game. I mean, how do you even keep the lights straight? Do you know what I mean? I

Drew:

we have the, we have the, we have the opportunity now to know things that I would suspect. The people didn't know back then. Um, you look at the Bainbridge trial, you know, his looking glass, they call it the looking glass trial there where he was declared a public nuisance for scrying and going out and trying to find water for farmers. And, you know, there's a lot of people want to argue that and say, well, it wasn't really a trial. He wasn't really convicted, but he was, we, we have the documents that showed that he was in fact,

Brad:

charged

Drew:

with that and, uh, told to knock it off basically. And, uh,

Brad:

yeah, his,

Drew:

but, but your question was, why didn't they see it? Um, that's a great question. I don't know how to, I mean, it's historical conjecture on my part, but, uh, I, I do believe that he was charismatic. Um, I'm dumbfounded that he, he was able to get 11 people that we now historically call the three and the eight witnesses. Um,

Nannette:

uh,

Drew:

You'll never convince me that any of them, they, well, we know at least with the three witnesses, they saw them with their spiritual eyes. What the hell does that mean? How do you put that on trial? Could you imagine showing up as a witness to a trial and going, your honor, I didn't see the murder. I just saw it with my spiritual eyes. Something you should have told your attorney before we came to trial, you know, but, but just think how goofy that sounds if you're going to say you're a witness. That's why I invoke the, the, you know,

Brad:

the trial

Drew:

the trial analogy. You said you're a witness. That means you saw them. And then you, then you're going to, you know, historically revise that comment to, well, they saw it with their spiritual eyes. Well, why the hell should I be beholden to that? Yeah.

Brad:

Well, a lot of

Drew:

I see a lot of things when I take a lot of caffeine and when I'm on opiates, but that doesn't make it true.

Brad:

and a lot of things have changed throughout the years, right? It's been, this is a literal history to, no, no, no, no. It's just an interpretation, or this is a literal translation to no, no, no, no. It's an interpretation. So little things like that have changed throughout the history of the church. And it's not uncommon for them to make it into something that seems more positive.

Drew:

Right. And all of these people, mind you, end up in the leadership of the church.

Nannette:

Yes.

Drew:

So they're all, they're all drinking from the same Kool Aid. You know, and they all want to, this, this is a power play. You know, if we go along with the ruse. And if we can just grift these people into believing us, we can set up a church, you know, we can have an organization, we can get people to believe anything we say, and then when he starts to have, you know, his power changed, and I believe it's Kirtland, this is where you suddenly have this mysterious revelation on, you know, Joseph Smith is the only one called in the Oracle, because there was about to be a mutiny, you know, and then you get this, this mysterious revelation Revelation on priesthood power, and we didn't even know about the priesthood until this revelation year. I'm like, how did you organize the church? Because the priesthood doesn't show up until later.

Brad:

That's an excellent point.

Nannette:

It makes zero

Drew:

church, how is the church organized? You tell us, you told us this whole

Brad:

it was organized line upon line, precept upon precept.

Drew:

here a little, there a little, here not so much.

Brad:

Only just in the time that God knew it was right to give. That's why it changes.

Drew:

so I start to read all this and then I'm like, Oh, and now I'm not happy. Now I'm like, no,

Nannette:

Now

Drew:

made me mad. And I'm an academic newsflash. We all knew that in this podcast, but I'm like, okay, if I'm going to have talking points or argue. I'm going to have data points. I'm going to know what I'm talking about. I just reference books that I've read. Like I'm going to go read Mormonism in the magic world view. You won't be the same person after you read that. You could, you, you will tell me you think Joseph Smith is a prophet. I really want to hear you say that after you read that book with a straight face. Boy, they sure,

Brad:

The

Drew:

they sure love their PhDs that they hired from Yale until They're not willing to preach the sermon, you know, to play along with the game. D. Michael Quinn was a very, very well documented historian. His footnotes are second to none. He knew exactly what the hell he was talking about. He had a source for everything. You could see it in his footnotes. Um, I know cause I have the books and I sat with him and he signed all of them

Brad:

sat

Drew:

before, before he died.

Brad:

signed all

Drew:

No, it was amazing. I sat and talked with him. He was amazing individual. Um, And I had

Brad:

with him. He was an amazing individual. Um, and I had such a great time. Oh, his

Drew:

his books alone were, were the, they're the books. Like I, I, if I never read any other books, Mormonism and the Magic Worldview, and then his Hierarchy, his three, three tomes. I mean, these are exhaustive books on priesthood power, the evolution of priesthood in the church. Um, They alone were enough to just destroy it all. It's really interesting. I say stuff like that. And then you, then you get the, the apologists, the defenders of the church. And it was like, well, that's just really sad, very condescending comment. And I said, there, there is such a thing as exculpatory evidence or damning evidence. And some things you just can't undo once you know them. And so for me, I doubled down and I just said, okay, I don't know about all this other stuff, the temple ceremony, whether, you know, where the 116 pages, I think, uh,

Brad:

what, what

Drew:

what was the guy that was scribing for him when he was doing the 160, the 160 pages that were lost? Who is, who is the scribe? No, who is

Brad:

Cowdery?

Drew:

No, Martin Harris. I think Martin Harris's wife took those pages. I'm absolutely convinced of it. Oh yes.

Brad:

she did. Her whole thing was, let's see if he can do it

Nannette:

Okay, but

Brad:

If

Nannette:

did she put them? Because they've got to be

Brad:

do it again. I just

Drew:

I just think she took him. But I think with Brad, she was going to say, All right, Mr. Prophet.

Brad:

Show

Nannette:

me

Drew:

Verbatim. Do it again. Yeah. Well, he mortgaged his farm. 10, 000. That's probably a lot of money back then. Yeah. So it's just, just crazy stuff. So she, I think she was onto it, but so then I, I doubled down and I go, nope. All right. What else do I know? So then I went to Sandra Tanna's store. Sandra is it. Sandra and Gerald Tanner are arguably, not arguably, they are the biggest critics of the LDS Church has ever known. And they took the LDS Church to task on so many lawsuits when The church would come after them for publishing things about the temple and other things like that, and they won. Um, they were the ones that figured out that the salamander letter was a fake

Nannette:

Are you

Drew:

and phony. They, so Mark Hoffman takes the letter into them. I've talked to Sandra about this and, and, uh, and she didn't say a whole lot, but she knew.

Nannette:

she knew

Drew:

knew that it was a, she was like, no,

Brad:

he tried to sell it to

Drew:

she was trying. Yes. He was trying to peddle his wares to her. And

Brad:

for those of you who don't know, Mark Hoffman actually, uh, created forgeries of several historical documents, um, especially when it pertained to the church because he knew that, uh, the LDS church would pay very well for some of these documents that, uh, were supposedly legitimate.

Drew:

Well, and the reason he knew they would pay is because they wanted to keep this story quiet, because the story ran counter to the narrative of how, uh, Joseph Smith had his first vision. This particular version of the first vision would have you believe that a salamander spoke to him, and the church wanted nothing to do with that, and yet he had presented it such that it was a legitimate document, and so this is bad PR. So here, here are the keepers of the keys, the most inspired men. Then who in the Book of Mormon are, you know, they have men apparently who have the priesthood in the Book of Mormon, same priesthood they do, who a king is killed and, and this king is able to sit on his throne, I think it's third or fourth Nephi, and they're able, this, this, this king is able to tell you who killed who. Or this, the prophet Nephi is able to tell you who killed the king, right? Um, and yet here are these men with the same priesthood, all these hundreds of years later, same, same priesthood, same authority, allegedly, and they have a thief in their midst, grifting them for, I think it's like 800, 000 worth of archives, something similar value. I don't think they tendered money,

Brad:

Well, because he kept going back and giving them document after document.

Drew:

And they were like, what is this? But there's my favorite photo ever is it's like Hinkley and you can see, uh, Holland, I think is in it. And there's a couple other of the key players and, and there he is handing them the salamander letter. And it's this big news article

Brad:

and

Drew:

until he goes and blows up some people. And,

Nannette:

Wow. And

Drew:

I'm like, wow.

Nannette:

So where was

Drew:

gift of discernment?

Brad:

where's

Nannette:

Where's the priesthood? There

Brad:

Dude

Drew:

is this dude is a murderous. Lying thief and you bought it lock

Brad:

Where's your messiah now,

Drew:

and and you're and you're gonna tell me when the saviors Like you're just like what? Like I can't think of a moment more important in lds history since i've been alive that would have Really been cool for them to have the gift of discernment show up and it did and it didn't

Brad:

didn't

Drew:

show up And he and they talk about the very elect being deceived Well, it happened that day and there's a photograph to prove it, you know And so what do you do with that? And yet this is what they do. They're

Brad:

Or, do we need to ask, are they actually the very elect?

Drew:

Yeah, or what they were thinking as men that day that's what that's the other bit They weren't acting in their office as leaders. They were just men that

Brad:

were just acting as men, not as

Drew:

Yeah. So that's why it went down.

Nannette:

him. My bullshit meter's going off so bad.

Drew:

It's so bad.

Brad:

Well, there's so many phrases like that that you hear and you're just like, are you shitting me? You can literally justify anything because of that. It's like, like I said, the line upon line, precept upon precept, right? It'll all come forth in God's time. Oh, he was speaking as a man, not a

Drew:

behavior. Just

Brad:

Yeah. Or you can't. You have to just listen to modern day prophets. You can't listen to prior prophets. So literally your entire base for your religion dies because those were prior prophets,

Drew:

well, then we shouldn't read the Bible.

Brad:

Yeah. We shouldn't read the Bible. We shouldn't read the book of Mormon.

Drew:

Definitely shouldn't read the Book

Brad:

Joseph Smith. We shouldn't listen to DNC. We shouldn't read any of that because that's all past prophets. All we should have right now is Russell

Nannette:

now is Russell M. Broad, once the prophet has spoken, the

Brad:

Yeah, the debate is over.

Drew:

Yeah. So the debate wasn't over for me and I continue. So I continued to read and read. And so I went to, so I filled my books with just about everything. Sandra sold in her store that I, that was. germane to topics that were important to me. And we'll get to the, maybe we'll just wrap up with this one, but, uh, or at least this part of the story. Um, so I started to look at deconstruct. Well, I started looking at what it meant to be Mormon and then thinking, wait, I gotta go tabula rasa here, clean slate. Like I don't know what to believe anymore and I don't know what to disbelieve but something is wrong You just know something's wrong think about when you've been doing investigations and you just know But you're gonna need more evidence really to but you know, something's off Something's not right, but you're not sure what it is But you got to keep digging until you can get to something that'll help explain it Why you feel the way you do. The hunch,

Brad:

Can I stop you for just a minute? Tell me what Tabula Rasa is because I've only heard it on John

Drew:

Clean Slate. It's Latin

Brad:

Slate.

Drew:

for Clean Slate.

Brad:

you remember? He tells

Drew:

Does John Wick say

Brad:

it? Tabula Rasa. No. No, no, no. The little guy who runs the hotel.

Drew:

okay. So anyhow, I just do, I was like, I'm going to have to, Clean slate my brain, but you can't really clean slate your brain, right? Cause you, you can't forget all of your experiences, right? So that's the, that's the crucible of it all is you're, you're wanting to do that, but you have all of this information and it's just sitting there going, that sounds not right here. So here's the thing. We are raised to believe. When the prophet has spoken, the decision has been made, right? This, this is, that is very culty behavior. That is very thought stopping behavior. And I invoke the J. Reuben Clark quote that says, if we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed by

Brad:

I can

Drew:

And so,

Nannette:

And that's from BYU. Yeah.

Drew:

yeah, yeah, he, he was a good man. Well, until I think he dealt with, Our friend down here that wrote about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, um, oh my gosh, her name slips my name and I'm embarrassed that I can't remember it. She's buried down here in St. George. Um, but she, yeah, she went to get the affidavits, uh, about what happened to the Mountain Meadows Massacre and they ended up not giving them to her. Made me really, really mad. Um, I'm embarrassed I can't remember her name. She is Probably one of the most outspoken authorities on the Mountain Meadows massacre besides Bill Bagley who wrote Blood of the Prophets and that Is a scathing indictment of Brigham Young. Yeah, it's that that book is harsh, but and and deservedly so So anyhow, I went to Sandra's store. I bought a bunch of stuff

Brad:

Um,

Drew:

and I said I'm gonna go about this like I would a trial and And so I said, Joseph Smith claims to be called of God, and that he wrote the Book of Mormon. And I thought, and that he was inspired to write the Book of Mormon, or translate. And we now understand that translate, means to see letters hovering above a glowing rock. If we listened to our flight surgeon, apostle, whatever his name is, the guy from Germany. Um,

Brad:

Uchtdorf.

Drew:

Uchtdorf who, yeah, he gave us that analogy. I think one other

Nannette:

Everybody

Drew:

Yeah. Don't don't don't they?

Brad:

Yeah. Okay. Anecdotal.

Drew:

time for

Brad:

Nan, it's time for you to tell your Uchtdorf story. I don't think you've told it on the show yet. So,

Drew:

profits,

Nannette:

of the general authorities, you know,

Drew:

authorities, you know,

Nannette:

post quarry.

Drew:

like they invited you because of that? Okay.

Nannette:

And so my area 70 took me up to the church office building in Salt Lake City.

Brad:

Great and Spacious Building? The

Nannette:

spacious building. Yeah. Um, and I got to go and. Um, the first person I met as we were walking in was the general young women's president and I had my daughter with me and, um, she was very kind, really sweet to my daughter. You know, we had our picture taken with her and then Uchtdorf came walking up and he's short by the way. Yeah. He's short. He looks tall. He's not.

Brad:

you know. I

Drew:

They do that shit at the general conference, don't they?

Brad:

Conference, don't

Nannette:

he, anyway, he comes walking up and, and my area 70 says, yeah, this is sister, right? Um, her husband was an officer that was killed in the line of duty, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Started introducing me. He shakes my hand and, and smiles at me. And, um, I, I said, I, you are one of my favorite speakers. And he, he pulls his hand back and he laughs and he goes, ha, I'm everyone's favorite. And then he walked away. I went. Where's Christ? I'm falling apart right now. And where's Christ? I felt nothing

Drew:

said, I'm everyone's

Nannette:

and walked away.

Drew:

That was his response to this is a grieving widow.

Nannette:

Yeah.

Drew:

Wow.

Nannette:

Yeah.

Brad:

Oh. Can you believe that?

Drew:

deaf Wow.

Nannette:

Yeah.

Drew:

How?

Brad:

about pride? Arrogance? I'm Yes.

Drew:

How can I help? How can I help you?

Nannette:

Nothing like that. There was no compassion. There was no compassion. None.

Brad:

None. Wow. Sometimes you can

Drew:

Well, sometimes you can be so heavenly minded, you're no earthly good.

Brad:

I

Nannette:

that.

Brad:

that. So, I said

Drew:

I said that out loud.

Brad:

a great phrase. I'm going to steal that.

Drew:

I wish it

Brad:

going to be the title of this show. Heavenly Minded, No Earthly Good.

Drew:

And I've always thought that way about leadership. It's just people that are pious, where they wear their, their piety and their, their religious declarations like a cloak, like Superman, like they, um, like, yeah, but I don't relate to you. See, when I tell you about sexual abuse and that one of your stake presidents was doing it to my sister or stake, I councilman, you don't want to have that discussion.

Brad:

No.

Drew:

You tell me that children are heritage of the Lord. And until you have to deal with the ones that you're very elected leaders are abusing. You never want to have that conversation. You want to run over to Curtin and McConkie before you talk to me.

Nannette:

right?

Drew:

Where's your priesthood power now? It's not priesthood power, it's legal power. Yeah. It's an image control thing. They don't ever want to have that conversation. They don't really want to administer to people.

Nannette:

administer to people. Well, and that's just it. Through my whole lynching, I wasn't, I didn't feel Christ. I didn't feel that love

Drew:

feel.

Nannette:

thought that I would. It was like signing

Drew:

thought that I would. It was like signing up

Nannette:

to get, um, autographs.

Drew:

autographs. Exactly. I, yeah, I was literally nothing. I was nothing. My little

Nannette:

I, yeah, I was literally nothing. I was nothing. My little girl was nothing. And here, this is her dad at 14 years old.

Drew:

14 years old.

Brad:

Mm hmm. And

Drew:

and it wasn't enough.

Nannette:

Nope. Nope.

Drew:

And they couldn't begin to give you what you needed. Not likely, you know, not

Nannette:

No answers. No love. No comfort. Just.

Drew:

Just let me show you how cool and righteous I

Nannette:

Like I always felt, I always felt like I, I didn't belong.

Brad:

But, yeah. Well,

Drew:

and in fairness to a lot of people, it's not that you don't belong. A lot of people aren't going to be qualified to sit with you in that type of pain.

Brad:

Um, and

Drew:

here's the, here's the thing, the people that really follow that man in that picture right there will be able to sit with you in that pain. They'll realize that it's not a competition. They'll realize that, um, to sit with you, I mean, isn't that what it says? To grieve with, to sit

Nannette:

grieve with

Drew:

grieve with those who are grieving, to suffer with those that suffer.

Nannette:

right?

Drew:

Sometimes to sit and feel with people means you keep your mouth shut.

Nannette:

You just feel you

Drew:

You hold their hand and you say, I'm here.

Nannette:

if you

Drew:

And I'm here, and if you want to talk, great. If you don't, I'm going to sit here and feel with you. I'm going to feel through this with you. If you need to borrow strength, if you need to borrow energy. I got you.

Nannette:

And that's love.

Brad:

Yep.

Drew:

is love. Yeah. You don't need to give it words.

Brad:

That sounds like Justin. We need to get him sitting down in a room with Justin. They would love

Nannette:

gosh, the two of you, would you come back? Okay, you and Justin think that a lot alike. He's our counselor.

Drew:

Oh, is he? Yeah. I have a lot of

Brad:

We could literally just sit the two of them in here and just listen.

Drew:

I'm bombastic, but I do have a tender side. All of my experiences have given me tender.

Nannette:

Let's, let's do the, the,

Drew:

the jurisprudence dissection of Joseph Smith because it's how it's how it all ended for

Brad:

Yeah, let's, let's roll to that.

Drew:

So the coup de grace, the whack that does it all in, um, is it's a sequence of logical formulations, a syllogism. So if a, then B. So if I can impeach Joseph Smith's claim that he translated the Book of Mormon, then I can disbelieve everything He did. after that. It's kind of the fruits of the tainted vine sort of idea. The fruits of the tainted vine would say, you know, legally that you acquired evidence illegally, ergo everything you can't, you, you can't, everything beyond that is thrown out. If everything beyond that followed from the acquisition of that illegally gotten evidence and it's all gone. And so, uh, you see this also with, witnesses in trials who are impeached mid trial. They're proven to be liars, and then they'll say you can disregard their entire testimony wholesale. They've proven themselves to be so, so dishonest in the scope of their testimony that you can just disregard their testimony entirely. This has happened. It's very rare, but it's telling moments in trial. So I thought, if I can impeach Joseph Smith as a prophet, then I don't need to worry about anything else. Any of the fruits that came from him, they will all be tainted. Um, and, and we see that. So I, I began by studying the Book of Mormon in earnest and looking at the myriad theories out there that the Mesoamerican model theory that says, well, all of these stories come out of Central America and you get B. H. Matthews, I think is his name and, uh, Roberts that goes down there. And. They're all looking for evidence and they sadly have to go back and say, we found nothing, you know, there's just nothing. I'm like, so how do we get these bold claims about a book to be the most true book of God on earth? We, we have this cock and bull story about three and eight witnesses, but nobody really ever physically saw them. You have 10 plates under a piece of cloth that he rattles and it makes some noise. Gold weighing what it would weigh wouldn't make that type of sound. So, uh, how do you have this explanation that you heard? That you heard plates rattling gold, you wouldn't hear rattle. It's so malleable and heavy. It wouldn't make that type of noise. You've had these experts talk about that. So I have that going on and I'm looking at the different models of, of a book of Mormon history that could possibly explain it. And then you lo and behold, you start to have all of this new science come forward and say, we didn't have steel in America, pre Columbia or pre Columbus. We didn't have horses.

Brad:

Then

Drew:

we look at the haplo haplo. studies of blood types. And, and we can see now that most of the Native American Indians come from some source up in the Inuits up in Alaska. Not, not the Middle East. I think that's what it says. I could be wrong on that. But it definitely doesn't come from the Middle East. So, you could tell that he was borrowing heavily from Hebrews to to, to to, you know, we got to get this whole idea of Israel and America and, and we're going to gather and finally go back to our motherland. And there's just no, there's no evidence that supports this bloodline of any of the houses of Israel, let alone Israelites, Israel blood being here in America, it's native Americans. And what a terribly racist thing to do. to come here, uh, and then go out and try and indoctrinate, colonize, as it were, just like the Catholics did South America, uh, Native Americans and try and teach them the Book of Mormon and say, well, you're, you're this group of people in this book. And oh, by the way, you're sinful and dirty, but if you believe what we believe, you'll get white. Good grief. Like, and I'm

Nannette:

they stole the children and.

Drew:

Oh, it's

Brad:

Well, they were trying to make them more white and delightsome, and

Drew:

well, you see that quote, Kimball, I think it was Kimball that said it. Like we can see the native American exchange program working. The kids are learning more and more and their skin's getting whiter and whiter. Oh my God. That's a matter of record. Like you said that

Brad:

Yeah, well he is speaking as a man, not as a

Drew:

you're speaking as a racist.

Nannette:

supposed to forget all the older prophets.

Brad:

prophets. Yeah. But,

Nannette:

It, but remember Hinkley had said at one point, I can't say it verbatim. You probably, you both probably know this, but, um, either the church is the greatest, I think it's miracle or story of all time,

Drew:

Or it's the biggest

Nannette:

or it's the biggest fraud. I mean, their own prophets said that. And so when you start to disprove the actual basis of the church, uh, it's the biggest fraud.

Drew:

So yeah, I, and I was able to do that. I was able to, I was able to persuade myself, uh, beyond a reasonable doubt. that he was in fact not inspired, that he was a charlatan, that he was grifting people. And all we have to do is take, for example, the woeful practice and doctrine of polygamy and say, um, did Joseph Smith practice polygamy the way he said in section 132? No. There's, it's a three pronged test. Okay. None of, none of which he did.

Brad:

Right.

Drew:

First of all, the prime wife had to consent. So how many times did all these other women consent? How many times did, or do we have a record of Emma consenting to all these other 38 women according to the historian out of UCLA? Um, I forget his name too, but I have his, Todd Compton in Sacred Loneliness. I mean, he goes through each and humanizes each of these, these wives, you know, but I'd like to know how many of them Emma knew about?

Brad:

Yeah.

Drew:

We don't have much record of that. So that prongs out. Then it said that polygamy was practiced to bear the souls of men. That's another fancy way of saying have children.

Brad:

Oh,

Drew:

How many children were born of these polygamous marriages?

Nannette:

Right.

Drew:

You know, that's two of the three prongs. I can't remember the third one, but those two always got me, you know, I'm like, we know that Emma didn't know. We know that she was disgruntled to say the least.

Nannette:

Um,

Drew:

And then we don't have any children coming from that. Why wasn't he having lots of children with all these women? It was a divine practice, right? Well, we know why. Because it was a ruse. It was a doctrinal ruse to justify his flandering.

Brad:

You know, the crazy thing about that is my entire life, I was always taught in church that the reason polygamy ever even happened was because as the pioneers came across the plains, many of the men would die and it left these women who needed to be taken care of. And so they would be married off to these men who could take care of them and

Nannette:

I was taught the same thing,

Brad:

That was my teaching from the time I was a child

Drew:

Or the

Brad:

the way up until I left.

Drew:

was because they were being persecuted. No, they wanted to kill Joseph Smith, and he was pissing off the natives.

Nannette:

And

Drew:

Nauvoo, what happens in Carthage, he violated the most sacrosanct U. S. constitutional, the very first constitutional right we have, freedom of the press. He pissed off the, the, the, the assembly of Chicago, or of Illinois.

Brad:

Boy, he

Drew:

off the body politic. You went and destroyed a printing press

Brad:

Yeah.

Drew:

hide your dirty secrets. You just, you just committed a felony, you know, a federal felony. So, I mean, yeah, this isn't the behavior of a man of God. He gets kicked out of Kirtland. Why? Cause he's trying to bed some other man's daughter.

Nannette:

Yeah,

Brad:

that's, which is why he got tarred and feathered. Yes!

Drew:

Not

Brad:

And they were going to castrate him. And the only reason he didn't castrate him is because the doctor who was there to do it went, I can't do this. Yeah.

Drew:

but the story we hear is, you know, they always want to make him the martyr. Like bro was bringing the shit on himself. Keep your pants zipped and maybe you'd have a few more people in church. But he was trying to bet

Nannette:

get everybody. Well,

Brad:

well, he's making his own congregation.

Nannette:

he

Drew:

Except he wasn't. He wasn't getting anybody pregnant.

Brad:

Well, I I've I've I don't know how much validity there is to this but I heard he had a doctor basically on staff

Drew:

John C. Bennett. He's rumored. John C. Bennett's rumored. There's that's

Brad:

He was the abortionist. That, that, that's the

Nannette:

never heard

Drew:

I've I've heard that, but I haven't read anything to support that, but I've heard that, but it is telling that he would have a doctor. John C. John C. Bennett him finally had it out. Yeah, they, he finally figured it out for what it was. There was all sorts of shit going on in

Nannette:

What the

Drew:

Oh my gosh. They were good off and getting married in the woods.

Brad:

Yeah.

Nannette:

What?!

Brad:

we

Drew:

they were good off and getting, he was performing ceilings in the woods.

Brad:

woods. Well, but they were

Drew:

Yeah. Yeah. So you don't need to bear the souls of men if you're just getting married spiritually.

Brad:

That happens on the other side. Oh. Okay. That happens after you die.

Drew:

Wow. It doesn't say that in the Doctrine and Covenants. I'm sorry. Is that in the footnotes? Is that the inspired version of the Doctrine and Covenants? I didn't know you had to inspire your own

Nannette:

You know, now that I'm not in the church, and Cory doesn't have a forever wife, I'm sure his family can get somebody else sealed to him,

Drew:

else's. But do you think Cory

Brad:

with this? Absolutely

Drew:

Would have anything to do with this?

Nannette:

Absolutely not. No, he would exit. He was exiting stage right. Just for the record. Yeah. Yeah. No, he was there because he knew it was a good foundation for our kids. It's not something that after sacrament, we would go get a burrito or he'd take Tyson and go to get something. But like, no, he, he never stuck around for anything. No, he purposefully worked on Sunday. So he didn't have to go.

Drew:

There you go.

Nannette:

Everybody thinks like he was just this, you

Brad:

what they talked about at the funeral. I remember sitting at the funeral and almost every talk was, Oh, he was all about his church.

Drew:

about his church.

Brad:

That's what everyone likes to remember or say, right? Because it brings comfort.

Drew:

I will make it very clear that at my funeral, there will be no reference to religion at all. It'll be a very secular funeral. Uh, not that I should care once I'm dead. I mean, I really won't care.

Nannette:

Oh, I will. If there's, I told my kids, if there's a Mormon funeral for me, I am going to paranormal the shit out

Drew:

of you.

Nannette:

I'm going to be

Drew:

my body, take

Nannette:

you burn my body, take a little bit of my ashes, take some of my money, go to Hawaii and you guys all walk out into the ocean and let me be where I love to be. And every time you see a sunset, you just think of me. But if you, if you don't go and get drunk after that, I'm going to paranormal you then too. So just

Brad:

then, too. So, just Drew, let me ask you one last question. Since you've left the church, uh, and you've left the religion, do you have a joyful life?

Drew:

Yeah, I have peace And let me tell you something and that peace is is to borrow the the ocean analogy it undulates it You know, it moves This is undulation It flows and there's some days that are hard and there's some days not but I no longer think that my dad bad days are Result of me not being pious or righteous enough. I just think some days are bad

Nannette:

Yeah.

Drew:

Some days are just hard.

Brad:

And that's a great

Drew:

does. Yeah. And it's beautiful. Say, I'm just going to sit in this shitty kind of day and just kind of be with whatever the universe is trying to inform in me right now. But it's not because God's mad at me. It's not because I didn't pay enough tithing. It's not because I didn't pray or read the book of Mormon for the 27th time. Um, it's. It's just a bad day.

Brad:

No more shame. No more guilt.

Drew:

Well, no, and it's shame took a little bit longer just because of the sexual abuse. Um, and then, uh, but yeah, this idea that the shame, you know, is the idea that we are wrong versus guilt, which is we did something wrong. Um, and when I finally realized, and even then, Wrong becomes very subjective. You know, what could be wrong for you may not be wrong for me. You know, a glass of alcohol might be really bad for somebody who shouldn't drink again. for me, it could be just a really nice way to end a day, you

Nannette:

day, you know. Um,

Drew:

and you, you learn to not be so absolute, but yeah, I have days of peace.

Brad:

Speaking of, uh, ending the day, I think this is a great spot to go ahead and, uh, close up this episode. Drew, thank you so much for being willing to sit down and talk to us. Thank you for being vulnerable.

Drew:

You're welcome

Nannette:

Thank you for sharing your heartfelt story and all the things I didn't even have a clue about. Like I, but I feel so connected to you even more than I ever have. And thank you so much for spending this time. I know you did not come to St. George for this, but

Brad:

it

Drew:

out perfectly

Brad:

perfectly. It did indeed.

Nannette:

grateful

Brad:

Right?

Drew:

young

Nannette:

for

Brad:

of you out there listening, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to what we have to say. Thank you for being so loyal and jumping on each week to hear our episodes. We really appreciate it. Thanks

Drew:

for having me.

Brad:

me. Drew.

Nannette:

other side of

Brad:

On the other side of the veil.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Nannette Wride

Host
Head Shot

Brad Zeeman

Co-host