Mormon to Medium

Ep. 73 - Spiritual Whiplash (Drew pt.1)

• Nannette Wride / Brad Zeeman / Drew • Season 2 • Episode 73

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In this episode of Mormon to Medium, Brad and Nannette engage in a candid discussion with their guest Drew, who shares his harrowing yet inspiring journey from a troubled childhood within a very abusive Mormon household to finding his path toward healing and self-discovery on the other side of religion. 

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Brad:

Don't give me that look. I'm

Nannette:

I'm going to give you that look.

Brad:

Okay, Aries. Alright. Here?

Drew:

you fit into a cosmic side. Absolutely. Wow. I'm a Pisces, by the

Brad:

by

Drew:

I dunno how that's gonna work for the energy of

Nannette:

work for the

Brad:

work for the

Drew:

a fish.

Brad:

of

Nannette:

fish. You're a water element. We're both

Brad:

Oh boy.

Nannette:

Ha ha ha!

Brad:

Alright, here we go. Hello! Welcome to the Mormon As a way of warning, this episode does contain References to the topics of sexual and physical abuse of children.

Nannette:

If these topics are triggering, please skip this episode Welcome to the Mormon to medium podcast, where we'll talk about spirituality, the paranormal religion, and my journey going from Mormon to medium. I'm Nanette Wride. Thanks for listening. Now let's go have some fun.

Brad:

Hello

Nannette:

Welcome to

Brad:

podcast. I'm Brad and I'm here with Nanette.

Nannette:

Hi, guys!

Brad:

And we have a very special guest on today. We are going to be talking to our good friend Drew, who has a very unique story regarding his life. as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. And yes, I just did participate

Nannette:

whole word?! What the

Brad:

yeah, I participated in their rebranding.

Drew:

you did. You did do that

Brad:

And I did. Usually I'm very opposed to it. I'm like, I'm not going to rebrand for them. I grew up a Mormon. I watched them spend millions upon millions on the, I'm a Mormon campaign. And then Russell M has a beef with Hinkley and changes it all.

Nannette:

Hey, but you just brought balance to our, our

Brad:

There we

Nannette:

You said

Drew:

got to, you've got to reduce those hits on the lit searches. I mean, that's what, that's, isn't that what, isn't that what it

Brad:

Right, exactly. Well, it makes it a lot harder to find all of that dirt. If you look up church of Christ versus Mormon.

Drew:

Drew, obviously

Brad:

So Drew, obviously I didn't introduce you. Would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself as we get into this? And then we'll talk about your story.

Drew:

story? Yeah. Yeah. Drew 57 year old law enforcement professional. We'll just leave it at that.

Brad:

twenty-five

Drew:

years in the business.

Nannette:

Thank you for your service.

Drew:

service. You're welcome. I originally come from a family of four and grew up LDS. My whole life is the only thing I knew from a religious perspective. And so, you know, my, What would you call it? The catechism of my youth was of the Mormon flavor. And I grew up my whole life identifying and interpreting life through that lens to the extent that I ended up going on a mission served in Spain,

Brad:

Oh, that'd be

Nannette:

Oh, that'd be cool. Served

Drew:

in Sevilla.

Nannette:

speak very lispy?

Brad:

Sevilla

Drew:

when I was there, we tried to do that, but it wasn't natural because the Spanish they taught us in the MTC was largely Mexican, you know, and and whatever that means because they have their own dialects across the different regions. But yeah, I came back from my mission, excuse me I always wanted to go to school but I grew up never feeling confident that I could go to college. But I always dreamed of going to BYU and I grew up in a, just a really abusive home, really troubling home. I don't know. Do you want me to get into that? I don't mind talking about it, but I mean, do you think it's germane?

Nannette:

Look,

Brad:

I don't mind talking

Drew:

I think, I think it, it sets the context.

Brad:

think it's germane? Yeah, cool. Yeah, so

Drew:

cool. Yes, I grew up in a home where there was a lot of sexual abuse. There was

Brad:

abusive

Drew:

My mother was very abusive to me. And when my father left, she was extra abusive to me and would beat me bloody, tell me I was dumb, tell me I was stupid. She would knock me out. And yeah, I went through a, just that, that was probably the hardest thing I went through as a child and a youth, but you know, it's interesting in listening to other victims that have gone through that and done the therapy and done the work and I have, I can talk about it and it just rolls off my tongue now. And I'm like, yeah, that's something I went through. What I learned from it though was I, you know, I sure remember what she said. I don't really remember the blows, but I'll never forget the things she said. And that was, that was really the most damaging. And you often hear those axioms, those quotes about words and how they cut and they're damaging and you can't take them back. Right. I would tell you that's very true. Right. Because I, you know, I'm 57 years old and I still remember. The things she said. I don't remember being hit so much, but I remember what she said.

Brad:

I think our bodies are really resilient, right? They tend to build up that tolerance to whatever is happening to it and balance it out and go, okay, that's not so bad. I can take this. But yeah, the psyche gets those words and

Drew:

Well, you're dealing with the schizophrenia of the motion or the moment, the, the dichotomy. Maybe that's a better word, but I mean, here you are, you're this child, right? And this is the woman who gave you life

Nannette:

She's supposed to love you and protect you. Yes. And

Drew:

she's murdering your soul with each hit with each word. I mean, she's, she's just destroying you. And so this person who's supposed to be safe is no longer safe. And, and so, you know, when you look at like Dr. Heller's work on attachment theory about co regulated nervous systems and how healthy children and adults will manifest as healthy largely because they had parents that taught them how to regulate the reptilian brain, you know, because that's all we are as kids. We're just little reptile, reptilian brains freaking out until people teach us how to breathe through an incident, you know. Going back to Law Enforcement Academy, tactical breathing and learning how to just get oxygen in your head so you can make better decisions even when, you know, the shit, shit storm is flying. But you don't know this when you're a kid and you're suddenly having to, you know, go into combat breathing and, and you have to comfort yourself because the, the very person that's supposed to be providing comfort is, is betraying their charge. As a mother and a caretaker, right? And so I grew up my whole life just in this very survivalistic mindset. Very afraid, but you, but you also grew up, I grew up, let me make it first person not third person, I grew up coping in ways that weren't healthy. You know, distracting myself in ways that weren't healthy. You know, and in adult life that turns into a whole bunch of different maladies. But yeah, so, by some miracle of God, I remember, I remember once when I was a kid it's probably

Nannette:

so I'm gonna be I'm gonna be

Brad:

I

Drew:

I want to say at 14 or 15 and my mother beat me for the last time and I finally fought back and beat the shit out of her

Brad:

I

Drew:

and I stood over and I looked at her and I said, do you ever touch me again? I'll tell the police everything you ever did.

Nannette:

Wow.

Drew:

And that was a, that was a powerful day.

Brad:

I'll bet it was.

Drew:

That was very liberating. To have had enough and I'm standing there with with a bloody nose. My face is bloody She's hit me that much and I just beat the shit out of her And I just told her if you ever touch me again, i'll tell the police everything you ever did So I still had her dead to rights But I had a I this is what I had to think right? This is terrible. I had to think like this when i'm 15. Go ahead. Do you have a

Brad:

Well, I was going to say, how did that, what clicked, what changed to make you finally go enough is enough. What, what happened inside of you to say, this can't happen anymore. I've got to do something.

Drew:

You know, bro, that's a great question. I just remember snapping. If I were to try and offer you a rational motivation, I don't think I'd be honest to say that I thought anything at that moment. I think other than to say, I don't have to put up with this anymore, but I don't consciously remember thinking that. I just went, I'm not I'm not putting up with this anymore and I'm going to make it, you know, I'm going to put an exclamation point on the end of these punches. You're not touching me anymore.

Brad:

So your fight, flight, or freeze finally turned into fight. Yeah.

Drew:

And I just, and, and, well, and I think, I think question the, the, the opposite of that question is why did you allow it to happen for so long? You know what? And you know, that, It sounds like you're shaming me, the victim. And I don't mean to say that, but, but I'll tell you why it happened because you don't know that you have the right to say no.

Brad:

I was going to say that when you're a child, you can't really change that with a parent. You don't understand that, hey, this is so wrong because it's all you know. It's kind of like kids who grow up in the church. They can't really say, hey, this is wrong. It might not feel right, but they can't say why it's wrong because it's all they know.

Drew:

Well, let's go there since you've opened that door. Here we go. So imagine that that's happening in your home.

Brad:

She sounds hot.

Nannette:

I don't know. Do you

Drew:

you want to work this out?

Nannette:

work this out?

Drew:

Like, we have a very Aphrodite type

Nannette:

to you

Drew:

here for the moment. Tell her you worship. Anyhow I think that the bigger question is, what theological and doctrinal teachings did I grow up with that would have led me to believe that that was okay, because that was something I did unpack. And

Nannette:

to honor your mother and

Drew:

you go, I was going to go right to the Decalogue in Exodus, honor thy father and mother. Well, well, how honorable is it to, to rebuff your mother's physical abuse

Brad:

met

Drew:

as one therapist put it, she lost her right to your honor the first time she ever struck you.

Nannette:

Wow.

Drew:

She lost it.

Nannette:

Yep.

Drew:

So all the, the honor and biblical doctrines that were ever preached to you are anathema to the idea of, you know, of, of true religion. They, they, they're gone. At that point. And you have a right to defend yourself. Now, I wouldn't have been able to articulate that, right? I think I just beat her up because I knew physically that I couldn't. I was like, I was done. You know, I was done.

Brad:

Do you know what? Good for you at that point. I mean,

Drew:

sounds really weird. Yeah, I'm

Brad:

that sounds really weird. Yeah. I'm glad you kicked the shit out of your mom, but at that point, yeah, it sounds like that is what exactly needed to happen,

Drew:

But this is, this is what I was growing up with. You know, and that's, that's just scratching the surface. And then you have all the sexual abuse going on, and you have all this other stuff going on in the house. You can tell the subject matter Is winding me up a little but that's okay. No, I'm I'm

Nannette:

You're okay?

Drew:

I'm good here.

Brad:

Okay, sorry to interrupt

Drew:

no, no, that's fine. Yeah, I'll hold this rock. I'm not gonna talk to the

Brad:

to talk to the rock. Well, what I'd like you to do is utilize that rock.

Nannette:

Slytherin. I want to

Drew:

and I just want to be clear and be Slytherin damn ready to be

Nannette:

Okay. Okay.

Brad:

Please choose your house and then you can go ahead and

Nannette:

don't

Brad:

text.

Drew:

like snakes,

Brad:

Fish is

Drew:

especially that one in that garden.

Brad:

that garden. Fun table. So, yeah. Sorry. I totally got you off track. Where were we? That

Nannette:

was a great track, though.

Brad:

though. That was fun, right? If

Drew:

you want me to go comedy, I can do that. I did comedy was in college, by the way, I did stand up a couple peg gigs at Johnny Bees and up in Idaho.

Brad:

in Idaho. Oh,

Drew:

yeah, I had

Nannette:

I love Johnny B's.

Drew:

That was way back. I just dated myself. But anyhow, so yeah, I grew up.

Nannette:

And us. I'm older than you.

Drew:

Are you? Oh, you are, you don't look older than me.

Nannette:

Thanks.

Drew:

anyhow,

Nannette:

I do. Like

Drew:

No, you actually do look a lot older

Brad:

me. Yeah, Jesus. Oh

Nannette:

in my house and you have to stay here. When

Drew:

when did you resurrect

Nannette:

learn that? You

Brad:

Anyhow. You

Drew:

Okay. Anyhow. Just crossed a line. Oh yeah. Well, yeah.

Brad:

did.

Drew:

Yeah, I did. I keep getting death glares from Brad over here.

Nannette:

don't know

Brad:

here. I'm

Drew:

yeah, I can

Nannette:

even get this out of

Brad:

got

Drew:

just drink my water. You two can work that

Brad:

this comedic

Drew:

how do I open this one? Anyhow, before we got horribly sidetracked on this comedic trip, what were we, go from like the death and woes of sexual abuse to like, you resurrected.

Brad:

Well,

Drew:

no sense.

Brad:

let me tell you something about me when things get deep. I tend to change the mood up a little bit with humor because I'm like, God, that's deep. I feel that right here. And so, I like to lighten things up a little bit and it's, and it's not to,

Drew:

make

Nannette:

to

Brad:

make light of your situation or what's happened to you, but yeah, it's just, it's one of the coping mechanisms that I think I developed in law enforcement, you know, Oh my God, look at this crash. Yeah, you know what I mean? And then the humor comes out.

Nannette:

Well, Nanette and I were talking about that at lunch. How in

Drew:

in our transcendence over our abuse and the things that have happened to us, we tend to get really self regulated and we're very aware of what we're feeling and we know when we need to ground, we know when we need to shut off, and we're very comfortable telling our story like I did, like I just say I've been sexually abused. What's really interesting is when you say something like that to somebody who hasn't done any work or doesn't, Hasn't made peace with their own sexual abuse. You can see them gristle and get

Nannette:

Yeah. It's uncomfortable. Yeah.

Drew:

And I think we have a duty as, as, as people who have transcended our own abuse to be mindful of that and to be careful not to share too much or say, Hey, are you okay if I talk about this? Because, and that's something I've learned in my transition out of the church is I don't have a right to harm somebody else who holds dear a theology I once did. They may not be ready for it, and I don't have the right to impose that type of existential whiplash on somebody even though I've, you know, I've had to, I've been forced by, by way of, you know, life, and of course Corey's funeral, to look at that part of my life I don't have a right to harm anybody else. When I talk about it, and so I always say to people, you know, if you'd like to talk about why, like we're doing here, why I left I'm happy to tell you, but understand you might hear some things you don't

Brad:

you might hear some things you don't like. I

Nannette:

all times.

Drew:

that you may hear some things that you didn't know and I don't mean you harm, but I'm not gonna prevaricate or dance around issues that

Brad:

or dance around issues that Prevaricate? I did.

Drew:

I did. Prevaricate.

Brad:

Nan? That was like her favorite word.

Nannette:

you a, are you a prevaricator? You know

Drew:

little bit of embellishment.

Nannette:

have to tell you though, you know, when you said that you snapped and you beat your mom, I literally had a moment like that cause my mom beat me until I was in my forties. And,

Drew:

Whoa!

Nannette:

My, my mom had overdosed and this is a regular thing. And so the neighbors knew that I was the only one out of my siblings and myself that would stand up to her. And so they called me to come over and Corey went with me. over and my mom just started wailing on me, like punching me in the face and the chest, like all over. And I've had it my whole life. So in my little brain, it's like, okay, here it comes, you know? And so I'd either say a smart ass remark or I do something to make her even matter. Or I do something to make myself laugh so that I could take the blows because I knew they were coming. But But I had that happen. So when you said that, I felt that I literally snapped something in my head, just snapped and I shoved her to the ground. And I told her, if you ever touch me, I will kill you. Don't you ever touch me again. And Corey whispered in my ear and he goes, it's about time.

Brad:

Seriously,

Nannette:

seriously. And she never touched me again. She tried to beat the shit out of Brad.

Brad:

beat the shit out

Drew:

that

Nannette:

other story.

Brad:

I, you know, I don't know, I don't know that she was trying to beat the shit out of me. She was just trying

Nannette:

She was punching you

Brad:

was trying to, she was trying to emphasize her point.

Nannette:

Yeah. he goes,

Drew:

I still don't think that sells well to the jury

Nannette:

Yeah. Yeah.

Brad:

I'm like, wait a minute. Did you just do that? If you do that again, you're going to get out and walk home.

Nannette:

So she punched him five more

Brad:

And then jumped out and walked.

Drew:

out. You meant what? You said

Brad:

Oh my gosh. She just did it on her own accord. Cause she's like, okay, I'm going to have to walk home if I do this, but it's worth it. Oh

Nannette:

that when you said that, I was just like, Oh my gosh, like I've been there. I know what that feels like. I know. And you can't explain it. It's just a click that like, I'm done.

Drew:

Yeah. Well, but it illustrates, you know, going back to my point about harmful theology that is conflated with an abusive experience. And this is something I've worked really hard on in therapy is looking at the harmful theology or harmful interpretations of what otherwise would be good theology, conflating the abusive experience and making it that much worse. It wasn't enough that my mother hit me and beat me and told me I was stupid. It was a church telling me that I had to honor her why she did that and not knowing in my head how to. To run against that and say, yeah, that doesn't feel right. You're just developmentally and intellectually. You're not at a place at 11 and 14, even to do that. You shouldn't have to be having those types of of rational self discussions, right? When you're 14, but, but we do, we end up having to have them and we become different people. That's what I tell people all the time. I'm different. I'm just categorically different and so for somebody who, who's never grown up sexually abused that grew up, grew up in a loving home, I, God bless them and their parents maybe weren't perfect, but it was enough of a loving, nurturing context that they were able to develop and progress through the phases of life normally or relatively normally, and I, I just don't know that life, and so I, I find, or I found For a while, when I would engage people that had had that, I was jealous. I was envious. You know, they never had to bear that cross. And yet I don't know what they really went through. I only know what they told me. And I just have a lot more compassion now with people. And I just go, yeah, we only know what people tell us, right? We don't, we don't really know what they're going through. And so I just tend to meet people where they're willing to offer what they want to share. And I have to take that. as face value, you know, and, and you'll find sometimes that you thought you knew somebody only, you know, and I'm sure you'll discover things about me in this conversation that you didn't know, you know, and it may be, hopefully it makes you look at me a little differently and go, Oh, you know, but, but we all have that story. I think we all have stories like that in us. And that's why I just think at the end of my journey in therapy, I'm suddenly full of a lot of, okay. For people. I just go, I don't know where they're at with their journey. I don't even know what their journey is, but I bet it's heavy. I bet it's been really heavy at times.

Brad:

that's a really good way to look at it. I like, I like that.

Drew:

it. Yeah.

Brad:

And that's kind of the thing is you kind of have to meet people where they're at in their journey and appreciate what they've gone through and, and where they are. And that's hard for a lot of us, right? And, and especially when we go, Oh, I've got to be right. A lot of people love to be

Drew:

be right. A lot of people love to be right.

Brad:

the,

Drew:

She's the most ethereal event of my life to know her, you know, so give me those tissues. So, but we were having a conversation the other day and just talking about meeting people where they're at, you know, and that translated to a really beautiful, rich experience I had with my daughter. It was Ashley's turn to bring the kids over to me with, you know, our divorce plan. It was my time to get the kids. And so she was bringing, walking Mailey down to my house and, and Mailey just was really, really sad. Well, I was knee deep in Dr. Heller's work on attachment theory at this time. And I knew my habit up until that point was, I don't have time to be bothered with you being upset. Did you know the routine, you know, what's going on, you know, you're supposed to come down here. And I just caught myself saying that to myself went, what am I doing? Like, but I've been doing this for years. So there's, there's a whole separate conversation to have with myself after that and a lot of work to do in counseling after that, but I just stopped. I could just hear myself saying, stop. She needs you to be a dad right now. She needs you to meet her where she's at. And so this little girl's just looking at me. She's sad. And I just walked over to her and I swear to you, angel somebody, but words came out of my mouth that I had never said before, but I just said, sweetheart. You miss mom, huh? That's sad. It's really hard coming down here when you've been with mom. And I know how much you love her. And you know what? It's okay if you miss mom. Even though you're with me. That's okay. I just put my hand on her shoulder and kissed her forehead and walked away. I kid you not two minutes later. She's like, dad, I'm going over to my friend's house.

Brad:

She just

Nannette:

needed that from you.

Drew:

She needed her dad to say it was okay to feel that way and not feel like she was betraying me. That's my sense of it. But why, why at 57 am I just now learning that, you know? And then I, you know, I went down this whole rabbit hole of, I wish I had done better sooner. And I went, but you got it right this time.

Nannette:

Yeah,

Drew:

You got it right now.

Nannette:

Yes.

Drew:

And see, this is the shit that happens to you when you grow up in homes like that. I think they're related. Like you're just always so emotionally insular because you're just protecting the next punch. And whether it's coming from a bad boss, a bad co worker, a professor, it'll play out until you resolve some dynamic in your life. You'll see it in other people and it's so unfairly attributed to them. You impute to other people. Bleeding from wounds they never inflicted, you know, and you see that phrase all the time, you know, we bleed on people who never cut us, but we do,

Nannette:

It's true.

Drew:

you know, we do. And I was like, you can't bleed on your daughter. You can't do this to this little girl. She just needs you to be a dad and you can do this.

Brad:

I

Drew:

And I was like, I don't know what to say. And then I walked over and I said the perfect thing. And it wasn't what I said. It was the communication that your feelings matter. It's okay to miss mom. And you're not betraying me to say that. And I'm no less dad because you miss mom, even though you're physically with me. It was a beautiful moment.

Nannette:

and her feelings weren't wrong. It was okay to be

Drew:

I modeled a man validating her feelings. And if she grows up to like men and want to marry men, I hope that's something she looks for.

Nannette:

You know, these are the golden nuggets though, that happen when you show up for yourself and when you do your healing and healing is hard, it is not fun. It is sitting in your shit and looking at it and sifting through it and then learning to love it and transmuting that energy into something that you can see in other people and you can transfer that love across. And that's what you're doing. You're seeing people for who they truly are as a soul that has gone through. All of these things, because we're here to learn. This is our school. But as, as you learn to love yourself, that is when you love others more deeply. You

Drew:

I think that's true. And, and you see this with your kids, right? How they're also like, if you're really finely tuned, you start to see that your kids are so uniquely their own. And I like my oldest son. He's so different than my other three kids. He's just very quiet and an excellent judge of character. Does not like fake people at all. His bullshit meter is finally attuned and he would much rather have a, you Quality associations and friendships than quantity associations. He doesn't care for riff raff and fake people. And I love that about that young man. And he's about ready to graduate high school. He's very quiet, introverted, likes his music. He's different. I'm just always trying to communicate to him. That it's okay to be you kiddo. You know, he's got this larger than life football player brother who's courting universities right now and trying to shop for the best scholarship for d1 football and he's an accomplished academic student as well. And and I always worry, you know Does he feel like he's living in a shadow, but I I don't see that I say I see this young man who's just confident who he is and and then of course my football player is a good example to my 11 year old who wants to be just like his football playing

Brad:

Yeah, right.

Drew:

But you know, since I, you know, since going through the divorce and, and, and going through my faith crisis, you know, the one thing I've realized that the most important hat I wear now is that of being a father. It's the only hat that matters right now to me. No girlfriend, no, yeah, if that comes along, great. But I'm, I'm seeking the richest experiences with my kids right now. One that's free of me being so messed up that I'm not doing a good job as a father.

Brad:

a father. Yeah. That's

Drew:

Where I know that I could do better when, when I have that sense, you got to do some things better

Brad:

Yeah, well, and being able to not shame your Children for loving their mother is a big deal because there are a lot of folks who get divorced and they use that as emotional warfare towards the other person. Oh, your dad did this and that and your mom did this and that. And there's this back and forth that creates so much turmoil in a child's life that they carry with them. their whole lives, right? So, kudos to you for recognizing that and not speaking out, you know, in a negative way

Drew:

Well, and I want to say kudos to Ashley, because

Brad:

And Ashley's your ex.

Drew:

she's my ex wife and she and I both. have laid aside whatever our marriage was and, and we have both brought all of branches to co parenting, to how we raise our kids religiously, philosophically. We're both very united on that. There, there just is no contention. And listen, I'm not here to tell you that. Our divorce was not messy. Of course it was, but, but you get to a point where you have to transcend that and say, what is the greater good here and the greater good is these kids. And I had a lot of work to do to her credit. She started doing the work a lot sooner, but we are now at a place where. We just, we cooperate for the, for our kids. And, and, you know, you say, well, you stay together, you stay married for the sake of the kids. I say you, you get divorced for the sake of the kids sometimes. And you learn how to co parent for the sake of the kids. And everybody's happier in this scenario. And that may not make sense going back to, you know, the religious foundation of this discussion. You know, I grew up, you know, you don't ever get divorced and you know, And all these stupid ideas about why you should stay together, even though somebody is going to be a doormat in that scenario, right? And somebody is not going to be happy if not both partners. And it's a stay married at all costs and, and pretend you're happy.

Brad:

be happy if not both partners. And it's a stay married at all costs and, and pretend you're happy. What happened after that? How did you get out of that household, out of that situation? Because you said, Hey, I want to go to BYU, Brigham Young University, right? The, the Mormon college you know, want to wear the blue and represent and watch the football team. Jim McMahon's a stud and you know, all of that.

Drew:

that's, that, yeah, let's go back there. So, This is probably the most influential years of my life where I, and I even have the card for my senior graduation, where my my step mom at that time said, I hope you get your wish and go to Brigham Young University. So I have proof that that dream is memorialized in a card, my senior year of high school. And I hold it because it's proof that I was always thinking that. And I always saw myself as not the dumb kid. My mom says it was, you know, I categorically, Said I'm not dumb, even though I was doing terribly in school. But we all know that sometimes kids perform poorly in school because their home environment's hellacious and there's not space for them to breathe academically. If you have to go home and fight for food and fight off your mother beating you, when do you have time to study biology? Right. You know, it's just, it's, and that was just how it was. And I was like, no, I am not dumb. I am smart. I'm really smart. And I just told myself this. So this is where you start. I started to find out a little bit of just who drew was. Innately, like maybe how I was born and I was like the, the very woman, you know, you'll notice I'm not even talking about my dad at this point because there's a whole, another issue there and I, I won't get into too much of that, but he was largely absentee, you know, at these years in my life. And I, and I'll just leave it at that. But not a good experience with my dad. I think that's a fair way to put it. But I won't get into details there. To

Brad:

and, and To be fair, that's a lot harder one to get over. I think sometimes because that was your, your male role model example and for you to go, okay, this is what that was. I can't be that.

Drew:

this is what that was, I can't be that.

Nannette:

just leave it at that.

Drew:

We'll just leave it at that. But so I did. Yeah, to your point. I didn't have a male role model and my mother was beating me and telling me I was stupid. So this is this is again, the bubble that I'm growing up in the lens through which I'm looking at life is survival

Nannette:

Yeah.

Drew:

not living. These are categorically different ways of being and and surviving is no way to live. It keeps you alive. But it says nothing about the quality of life. It says nothing about becoming authentic and discovering who you are. These are the years that you do that, right? But, but I'm not doing that. I'm just trying to figure out how to avoid the next punch and, and get the next meal. So I, I ended up telling my mom, you'll emancipate me. And sign the papers of emancipation, or I will tell the police everything you said. I made it legal.

Brad:

15. 15

Drew:

15 years old. These are the type of decisions I'm making. So, and this,

Nannette:

is not a stupid kid. No. Just gonna say that.

Drew:

so a couple in our ward I was really good friends with their son They had made this suggestion, and then I told my mom you will do this. It wasn't a

Brad:

Faith, a ward is essentially a neighborhood of, yeah, congregation, your parish, your group

Drew:

a

Brad:

like minded individuals within your religion that live in a

Drew:

And I'll try and avoid that culturally specific language, but

Brad:

it's okay. And we can clarify it as it comes up because that's that's part of it. I mean, it's Mormon to medium. So it's literally part of our history as

Drew:

Absolutely. That's a good, good point of clarification there. So I did, I got emancipated and I was adopted by this family. The problem with that was, and they legally adopted me full on papers, lawyer, everything. And I lived with them for a year and a half. The problem is, is when you go from no rules

Brad:

to rules to structure,

Drew:

That is a brutal curve. And I, I just did not adjust well to that. And so I lived there just my junior year after my sophomore year. And then I, I decided that that wasn't going to work for me. And I went to live with my birth father up in New York. And so by this time, I think he was on his fourth marriage. And so that's where I met the lady, my step mom who memorialized my desire for BYU. So I did my senior year at BYU. graduated nothing spectacular about my grades or GPA, but I still held this dream. And I thought, and I knew, you know when you're not cutting it academically and you know that you're not college material. And I'm just like, I didn't take hard enough classes and I certainly didn't get good enough grades in the classes I did take or those classes. So I, I just knew, but I was like, no, I'm going to go to school there. I don't know how it's going to happen. So this, this is where I started to meet Drew, this kid that just has this dream. And he isn't going to be told no, even if his mom said he was stupid. And even if he didn't have the GPA and even if he didn't have the core work. So I thought I'm going to go on a mission. I'm going to trust the Lord to bless me.

Brad:

Okay?

Drew:

So I'm an active member of the church up to this point. So that was my that was my bargain with the universe, as it were, you know.

Brad:

Did your family go to church with you? Like, your mother go to

Drew:

no, not, not after, not after I left, we were very, I would say we were more inactive. I was active, but to answer your question, no, I went to church on my own most of the time. And, and, and, you know, one of the, the, the side stories to all this is when you're going through all this and you have siblings, you become very estranged because your whole world is just to survive. You don't even have room to come and dear, dear siblings and we're all in the same horrible environment just trying to live

Brad:

live our lives.

Drew:

And it's, it's one of the biggest saddest things I have is just how estranged we remain still.

Brad:

things I have is just how estranged we remain still. No doubt. No

Drew:

No doubt, no doubt. And, and it was safe. So I could escape home long enough to be safe at church. Or, we called it mutual back in the day. Or, you know, steak dances were huge and I'm, I'm a fairly good dancer. And so I was like, I was

Brad:

He likes to boogie.

Nannette:

I was a

Drew:

I, I, and, and I was, I was a bit of a break dancer back in the day. And, and, and there was three of us, the three amigos we called ourselves. And we. Oh my God, we, we would show up to steak dances and the game was freaking

Nannette:

game was freaking

Drew:

And it was, it was, it was just fun. I mean, I don't know how else to say it. Maybe I remember the fish

Brad:

it is. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha It's like, I was essentially Michael Jackson. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Drew:

I was one of his backup

Nannette:

I was a backup dancer. So I

Brad:

and I

Drew:

But so I go on the mission and I come home,

Brad:

Let's talk

Drew:

and then my life goes to shit, right?

Nannette:

Well, let's back up. Let's talk

Brad:

the mission for a little while. You said you went to Spain.

Drew:

To go to Spain.

Brad:

What was that

Drew:

It was horrible. I was so ill prepared to be in Spain, and when I say horrible, I just wasn't emotionally mature. You know, I, here I'm, I'm on a mission and I'm all alone in this room with a dude that I don't even know. And we're supposed to be praying together and doing things that I think are kind of quasi intimate. And it was just weird for me. It was just messing. You know, when you've been sexually abused, you don't like people getting up in your space and, or the imposition of what I thought were just kind of intimate experiences. And I'm not accusing the LDS church of trying to do that. I'm just saying, that's how I experienced it. And it was just weird. Okay. You know, going and having this roommate and I didn't really, and I just wasn't emotionally mature. I mean, I, you know, I just wasn't where I needed to be in my headspace. You know, I saw this in some of the training in my law enforcement. I just showed up to training that I just wasn't really mentally ready for, you know, and, or to fatherhood, you show up to fatherhood and you just think you're ready and you're not, you know, and so, I showed up to the mission just so emotionally not ready, and I remember being homesick, pretty typical, right? But I, I remember I was in Fuengirola. It's a coastal town, just it's just over to the west of Malaga, and my companion's father and brother were killed in a car accident. And so we have to go to this member's house to get, make a phone call. Cause we don't have

Brad:

We didn't

Drew:

have cell phones back then. And so I'm sitting there in this member's house and he's getting this news with this crying kid and this lady that his brother and father were just killed. And I watched this companion just. Implode and we're just alone, these two Americans in this small little coastal town. And, and you know, he was struggled for the biggest time.

Brad:

he go home for the funerals? No. He didn't?

Drew:

I don't think he, I can't remember. So in fairness to, to him and, and the story, I just wanna say I don't remember what happened, but I remember just observing that and going, it should have been obvious that he was going

Brad:

Right. I do

Drew:

remember there being a big debate about that and almost a fighting to get him to go home. And I'm like, this is absurd.

Brad:

go home.

Drew:

This is absurd.

Brad:

absurd. This is absurd. Yeah. Well, because you're essentially being human trafficked. They keep your passport. They don't give it back to you. You're, you're theirs.

Drew:

to theology that

Brad:

we go back to theology that

Drew:

conflated this experience. What's the New Testament passage where, the, the, the guy wants to embark on the service, the Lord, he says, but I first need to go home and do this. And the Lord says, basically, you know, when you're embarking on my service, you, you leave all that behind. And, and that I, I'm not doing it, the service to recall that scripture that way. I don't think I'm totally characterizing it right. But there was this idea that once you had embarked on missionary service, you left everything behind. And I just didn't. Don't think I think you could go through the rest of your life regretting not going to bury your father

Brad:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Drew:

I don't think any amount of service. I think you go stateside after you go home I'm a fine with that to knock a home and bury your father because you thought it was more righteous How could you be in the right space mentally to do missionary work and simultaneously be mourning the loss of your father let alone? Wondering whether or not you were being disobedient To stay or go? Like that's, this is where theology again can conflate our experiences and make it worse. This happens sometimes. It's not necessarily the result of religion. I think it's the result of bad theology. So, and, and the result of interpreting theology bad ways. And sometimes that's humanly derived.

Brad:

Yeah, that's fair. Thank you for elaborating a little bit more on your

Drew:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brad:

that would be, I didn't go on a mission, right? My girlfriend got pregnant. They frown on young fathers going on missions.

Nannette:

father. I

Drew:

I heard that's a no-no

Brad:

yeah, they, they don't, they don't allow that. So I didn't go on a mission, but I can imagine how difficult that is as a young man having to make that adjustment because there is literally zero life experience at that point. Yeah. And here you are, especially in a foreign country going, wow, what do I do now? And so you just structure your life completely around religion, right? You, you wake up and you pray, you read your scriptures. You do companion study. You

Drew:

I'm trying to sell the religion to foreigners. Exactly. I am, I am the salesman. Yeah. And don't kid yourself, that's exactly what you are. Yeah.

Nannette:

are. A hundred percent.

Drew:

get more tithe payers. Sorry.

Nannette:

Yeah, it's true though.

Drew:

I, I don't see it any other

Brad:

and you pay to do it. You pay them to let you sell for them. How crazy is that? What a great business plan.

Drew:

what a, what a grift. It's like some of these these startup companies where it's a 15, 000 buy in. Yeah. That sounds familiar. Yeah.

Brad:

It's the same idea.

Nannette:

familiar.

Drew:

in Utah.

Brad:

Yes, you do.

Nannette:

idea. It's the same. It's

Drew:

Anyhow.

Brad:

Anyway, thank you for talking

Drew:

yeah, yeah, but listen, I, I, I don't want to leave the mission characterization at that because I will tell you That I went on to have some really beautiful experiences on my mission and this is just kind of something I've learned in my recent therapy and it's I think my therapist calls it Taoist thinking but We we tend to look at things we can in Western thinking a lot of times as all or nothing It's either this or that and she says no drew. It can be this and

Nannette:

this, yep,

Drew:

It can be both you you can you can both Be angry at an ex wife, if you want to go there, and you can still love them, or an ex girlfriend, and you can still love them. It can be both of those. You can be frustrated with your child, but still feel love with them. There's love for them. It's not, you have to be one or the other at that moment. No, you can, you can feel both. You can and that's been new for me because all or nothing thinking is endemic in really bad logic and really bad rationale. And when things are all or nothing gambits, there's a lot to lose and far too much purported to be gain that isn't true.

Brad:

Well, and I think that's pretty common. Like a lot of people I talk to about their missions, they go, Look, I had some fantastic experiences, I met some wonderful people, and then you also have those folks who go, but, on the other side of it, I missed home all the time, I felt very controlled, I didn't have free time. You know, there are so many other variables that balance it out, and it's this and that.

Drew:

so many other variables that balance it out.

Brad:

retro,

Drew:

retrospectively applied now. I don't think for in the first instance, I was thinking about it at the time, but now that I look back what made the mission hard that perhaps I wasn't even consciously aware of is I didn't believe the message I was selling.

Brad:

Ah, so you didn't have your own belief system at this

Drew:

no, I, I, I just, I, I realized I was a pawn that I was a salesman And I wasn't digging it and I knew, and I was no good at it. You know, I'd see the guys that were APs and district leaders and, and the guys that were the mission president's pets. Right. And they were just good salesmen.

Brad:

Yeah, and then they came home and did summer sales and made a

Drew:

they did bingo. No, I was gonna go there. No,

Brad:

it happens. They're

Drew:

and listen, they might believe it, and I'm not here to diminish what somebody else might believe, that it may or may not be a good salesman. I knew. that I was

Brad:

a folly.

Drew:

preaching a folly. I knew that I didn't believe what I was saying. And that's what made my mission hard. That's no fault of the church,

Brad:

you still came back and you went to Brigham Young university, which is a church university, and you

Drew:

Because I wanted the social, yeah.

Nannette:

teachings

Brad:

the church in order to attend,

Drew:

that ironic? Yeah, no, you're, you're very keen to point that out. And so what ended up happening was, is when you come back from the mission experience and you know what, again, I say, I, I, I'm looking at that experience retrospectively. I still think that I didn't believe the message. Maybe as strongly as I could have I I do remember feeling

Nannette:

all

Drew:

I have all this truth, right? I have all these answers I've I've got these discussions down and I'm still not happy and maybe I'm saying that it I didn't believe it because I just wasn't Happy, but maybe I wasn't happy for different reasons, right? Maybe I wasn't happy because I had trauma and abuse and things that were now starting to emerge because when you're finally out of the environment that's oppressive and abusive and you can breathe a little bit, you start to see it for what it was. And what ended up happening is I'm in a foreign country and starting to see my home life for what it is. And that's starting to color everything that's happening as a missionary.

Brad:

missionary.

Nannette:

Did you ever wonder that this just popped into my head? Did you ever wonder if your neighbors, people in your ward knew you were being abused and just kept their mouth shut?

Brad:

Make sure to tune in next week to find out how drew answers this question.

Nannette:

We'll continue talking to Drew about how his faith crisis led him to where he's at

Brad:

and as we finished this interview up with Drew you're really going to see how some of these connections are far reaching not only do they impact just him, but some of the ripples from Nan's life move out and, and affect Drew in the way that he thinks about things.

Drew:

Right. So

Brad:

So thank you

Nannette:

for your support. Thank you for listening and taking your time. Let us know if you have any questions and if you'd like to support the show and we will see you. Do you

Brad:

On the other side of the veil.

People on this episode

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Nannette Wride

Host
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Brad Zeeman

Co-host